Weekend open thread 5/25/12

 This weekend we honor those who have given their lives in service to their country. While we are at it, let's thank a soldier, sailor and Marine for their service as well.

In the news: Tonight at 8PM Central Time, Republican Gov. Scott Walker and his Democratic opponent, Milwaukee mayor Tom Barrett, will square off in a debate in advance of the June 5 recall election. The debate will be carried by C-SPAN and should also be available for livestreaming. Since it is C-SPAN, it most likely will be repeated again during the weekend.

Today Vice-President Biden gave an emotional speech about loss to the Gold Star parents of soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. He related how he lost his first wife and daughter in an accident, his son barely surviving, and shared how he knew a little bit about what they were feeling. He commiserated with them over the "black hole" their lives had become since losing a loved one, and there is no way the country can ever repay them for the sacrifice of that family member.

And finally, to further demonstrate that he is "on top" of things, Dori Monson sputtered his outrage that sex ed workshops were held at The Evergreen College this past week.  We are relieved that Dori follows the hard news.

This is an Open Thread.

Comments

[KS]

It was a beautiful day in the neighborhood.

[Puget Sound Blathers]

Looks like Chris Hedges on MSNBC has problems. One of the worst tributes to the fallen and those serving today I have ever heard. Remember this Chris, it is the civilians that set the policy that sends the military to war. The role of the military is simply to carry it out with honor and integrity.

Hedges is wrongl

[Puget Sound Blathers]

and no Chris, it is NOT difficult to talk about our fallen soldiers without invoking valor.

[Puget Sound Blathers]

Sorry to anyone named Chris Hedges, it is Chris Hayes.

[mw]

Well, which is it?

[sparky]

I think you misunderstood what he said ps...When someone says "it is difficult to talk about our fallen soldiers without invoking valor" he is saying its hard not to think of them as brave. He didnt say they werent worthy of valor. Go back and read what you wrote.

Chris Hedges wrote a great article this weekend on the War on Gays.

[KS]

It's Chris Hayes and he did not articulate what he said clearly and left himself open to ridicule by many patriots. It was a boneheaded thing he said. Why in the hell did he say it in the first place ?

Dead soldiers who defended our freedoms are posthumous heroes - why should there be any question about it ? Maybe it also had to do with the fact that he is on MSNBC - the leftwing progressivist propaganda channel of record. Still waiting to hear him walk back his remarks, if it even happens.

[sparky]

Nevermind. You two enjoy being outraged. Carry on.

[Walt]

Hey Sparky don't confuse them. More fun to watch them get pissed off because they can't understand plain English. So don't ruin my fun!

[Puget Sound Blathers]

Nevermind. You two enjoy being outraged. Carry on.

Posted by: sparky | May 28, 2012 at 01:55 PM

sparky
how hard is it to honor the fallen soldiers as heroes. those same heroes who fell in in the line of duty in order for chris hayes to have the right to say what he wants.

take off you partisan blinders. he clearly will want to retract it at some point.

[sparky]

He wasn't dishonoring them. He did not say anything negative. He was AGREEING that you cant help but think of valor when you think of the soldiers. You are all upset over nothing. You misunderstood what he said. There is nothing to retract.

KS your reading comp. is just as bad. I know it was Chris Hays. PS first said Chris Hedges, and I added a comment about a piece that Hedges wrote. You are always ready to pounce on whatever I say, but you just dont read what I write.

Not spending another second of my last day off trying to explain it to you anymore than that.

[Puget Sound Blathers]

yes he was, sparky. he was tying them to a policy he doesn't approve of.
just honor the soldiers. let it go.

now be gone. come back on a rainy day. that's my plan :)

[Fremont]

Good try, Sparks, but enlightening the dim is often hopeless. Thanks for the Gay Hedges shout-out...great article.

[KS]

OK, Sparks - support your side of the argument if you care to try. Fremont -you are the dim one. Just because Hayes is on your favorite network does not merit a free pass even if he gave a shout out to gays - that is not relevant to the subject.

Trump has said some stupid things lately as well and should be called on it, I challenge any you defenders to show how Hayes did not diss our "fallen" soldiers in the statement he made yesterday on TV.

[Preston]

"any you"?

[KS]

any of you - OK ? Hayes tried to politicize this and made a gaffe in the process. He is anti-war (no problem with that) and ended up tieing dead soldiers to wars that were seemingly unnecessary. I am hopeful that Romney would distance himself from Neo-con defense policy - how does he convince voters that stonger military means no more wars unless we are attacked as in Pearl Harbor or 9-11 ?

Looks like Ron Paul is the only true anti-war candidate running.

[Walt]

Hey KS! She said that HEDGES wrote the article. Not HAYS. Just like she said, you don't read very well. ROFLMAO.

[Preston]

good gawd, leave it to the FOX news types to yell fire in a theater, ok?

[Watching You]

Reagan would never have been nominated in today's Republican Party:

Reagan on Unions:

"Collective bargaining has played a major role in America’s economic miracle. Unions represent some of the freest institutions in this land. There are few finer examples of participatory democracy to be found anywhere. Too often, discussion about the labor movement concentrates on disputes, corruption, and strikes. But while these things are headlines, there are thousands of good agreements reached and put into practice every year without a hitch."

"They remind us that where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost."

Neither would Eisenhower:

Eisenhower on abolishing Government Programs:

"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H. L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."

From the 1956 Republican Platform:

PHILOSOPHY: "Our great President Dwight D. Eisenhower has counseled us further: "In all those things which deal with people, be liberal, be human. Government must have a heart as well as a head. "

LABOR: "Workers have benefited by the progress which has been made in carrying out the programs and principles set forth in the 1952 Republican platform. All workers have gained and unions have grown in strength and responsibility, and have increased their membership by 2 millions. "

EDUCATION: "Republican action created the Department of Health, Education and Welfare as the first new Federal department in 40 years, to raise the continuing consideration of these problems for the first time to the highest council of Government, the President's Cabinet."

FOREIGN POLICY: "We shall continue vigorously to support the United Nations."

SAFETY NET: The Federal minimum wage has been raised for more than 2 million workers. Social Security has been extended to an additional 10 million workers and the benefits raised for 6 1/2 million. The protection of unemployment insurance has been brought to 4 million additional workers.

ENVIRONMENT: "We recognize the need for maintaining isolated wilderness areas to provide opportunity for future generations to experience some of the wilderness living through which the traditional American spirit of hardihood was developed. Added more than 400,000 acres to our National Park system, and 90,000 acres to wildlife refuges."

[Truth-seeker]

That's a lot for KS and PS to read. Chris Hedges isn't gay - at least, he's got a wife and children. In fact, he's been married twice. I guess that doesn't prove anything with rightwingers but so far I'd say the evidence is on the side of hetero at least until we know more.

You can honor soldiers without honoring war. It is called nuance. That seems to be a lost art. We need a military but we don't need to go to war with every body on the planet. And a lot of soldiers who went to war did it for an income and many don't support the war that maimed or killed them.

[KS]

Sorry to anyone named Chris Hedges, it is Chris Hayes.

Posted by: Puget Sound Blathers | May 28, 2012 at 08:06 AM

WALT - You don't read well. Hedges is a different person and it is irrelevant to the discussion. The guy who made the ill-advised comment was Chris Hayes. Leave to the leftwing progs to attempt to change the topic whenever their guy looks bad. Obfuscation is what you tried. Hedges wrote the article which is irrelevant to that discussion. Hedges was not the guy on MSNBC speaking about dead soldiers whether they should be referred to as heroes - one more time - it was Chris Hayes.

Where did I say Hedges was gay ? I didn't. BTW - I was talking about Chris Hayes all along (see above). Hayes did a sloppy job of trying to be nuanced and I see where he was trying to go, but he should have thought more about it before he spoke.

[Preston]

Face, baby...

[Puget Sound Blathers]

well, looks like Chris Hayes has thought about what he said and has made a suitable apology, dtd May 28, 2012:

"On Sunday, in discussing the uses of the word "hero" to describe those members of the armed forces who have given their lives, I don't think I lived up to the standards of rigor, respect and empathy for those affected by the issues we discuss that I've set for myself. I am deeply sorry for that.
As many have rightly pointed out, it's very easy for me, a TV host, to opine about the people who fight our wars, having never dodged a bullet or guarded a post or walked a mile in their boots. Of course, that is true of the overwhelming majority of our nation's citizens as a whole. One of the points made during Sunday's show was just how removed most Americans are from the wars we fight, how small a percentage of our population is asked to shoulder the entire burden and how easy it becomes to never read the names of those who are wounded and fight and die, to not ask questions about the direction of our strategy in Afghanistan, and to assuage our own collective guilt about this disconnect with a pro-forma ritual that we observe briefly before returning to our barbecues.

But in seeking to discuss the civilian-military divide and the social distance between those who fight and those who don't, I ended up reinforcing it, conforming to a stereotype of a removed pundit whose views are not anchored in the very real and very wrenching experience of this long decade of war. And for that I am truly sorry."

So much for all the folks who did the standard knee jerk liberal response. Even Chris Hayes figured it out.
What say you?

[Puget Sound Blathers]

So lets give credit to Chris Hayes for standing up and doing the right thing.

Anyone think he was wrong to apologize for his comments?

A-n-y-o-n-e--?

[Military wife]

I think its disgusting you are using politicization on this important day. My husband is fighting so you can turn this into a conservative vs. liberal one upmanship.

[KS]

Blame the media and also the President for politicizing Memorial Day. They are the messengers, not us.

Good that Hayes apologized. Now its time to move on.

[Truth-seeker]

Chris Hayes apology? Anyone think rightwingers take umbrage too quickly?

What a dumb fuck to say the President is politicizing this day. Where have you been all your life? What is different about Obama's memorial ceremonies?

[Truth-seeker]

BTW, I think it was fremont who called him gay Hedges . . .

Why do you take everything so personally, KS?

[BlackRhino]

I respect the clarification Hayes has expressed. And I agree with his understanding, glorifying war in the name of heroes is abhorrent.

[BlackRhino]

The media covered the day, as they should. The President commented on the occasion as the commander and chief ought to. The politics occurred when someone or faction took offence to this practice.

[KS blathers the bitter truth]

Yes, the President politicized it by claiming no more wars unless absolutely necessary. Politicizing is not always a bad thing - but any one with a brain should know the president is a hapless bullshitter and perpetually full of himself.

You're projecting, TS - when it comes to taking everything so personally - you are the pot calling the kettle black.

[BlackRhino]

Thank you, KS. I think my point is clear.

[Puget Sound Blathers]

clarification? Hayes apologized. which is what he should have done. good for him.
bad for those who try and give his earlier statement a figleaf.

KS was spot on.

[KS]

For the record - Owebama was no more political about Memorial Day than Romney was.

[Truth-seeker]

Aha. Rethinking your opinion, huh? That's decent of you.

[Puget Sound Blathers]

Truth Seeker, it's nice that Chris Hayes apologized for his ill chosen remarks.

Just interesting that all those folks who jumped in to say that Chris Hayes remarks were not incorrect have yet to take note that the speaker of those remarks, Chris Hayes, did in fact repudiate his original remarks.

Unless of course you take issue with the Chris Hayes apology, Truth Seeker.

[Truth-seeker]

He apologized for offending sensitive people. Get over it.

[Puget Sound Blathers]

He apologized for offending sensitive people. Get over it.

Posted by: Truth-seeker | May 29, 2012 at 04:14 PM

Yeah, those Veterans of Foreign War fellows are soooo sensitive.
Just show a little respect, Truth Seeker. Chris Hayes did.
Why can't you?

[Puget Sound Blathers]

or maybe you can, go ahead and apologize.

[Truth-seeker]

So now you're the voice of all veterans? What an ego you have.

[Puget Sound Blathers]

So now you're the voice of all veterans? What an ego you have.

Posted by: Truth-seeker | May 29, 2012 at 05:54 PM

nah, just on to someone of your ilk.

[Coiler]

It's the "dog whistle" effect, blow it and the dogs in the south and elsewhere are supposed to perk up and become outraged over a non or made up event. Right-wingers rely on this ploy in which people with no cognitive skills do the bidding for rich, white people.

[Puget Sound Blathers]

evidently chris hayes must not be too bright and fell for it.
i doubt chris hayes is that stupid.

[KS blathers the bitter truth]

The old dog-whistle meme - OK. Racist is the dog whistle for the left - it is getting old and tired, which means that they have run out of counter arguments. The left-wingers use this ploy in left wing community organizers try to manipulate and are morally bankrupt try to outrage minorities and do the bidding for blacks and try to lure the Hispanics on to the Democratic party plantation.

Wish it wasn't true but that is what politics has come to in 2012.

[Reverend B,T, "Tommy" Beamer, (Tommu008's uncle)]

The nephew sent me an email from Cannes, still there for a few more days after taking in the Cannes Film Festival. .....i cut out the personal and family stuff and left in some talk radio stuff .."Dear Uncle Tommy,..............listening to a Leykis show rerun over te weekend.....the man is smart about women and many other things but his take on Romney really shows he should have finished more than one year of college.......he rightly claims that "Obama doesn't know a thing about how to fix the economy" but goes on to say he'll hold hos nose and vote for the man becaus ehe doesn't like how Romney fired people at Bain Capital......Leykis just doesn't get it....Romney's job at Bain Capital was not to hire people, it was to cut the waste and fat out of failing companies.....Romney is a fixer He has an excellent track record at fixing things. When he's brought into the Federal Government he will fix the economy and stimulate hiring because that is what he is tasked to do. He won't be "firing" people , it's just tom being a jackass when he dwells on Bain Capital......... Got to go Uncle Tommy- a man in a white Ferrari is down there waiting for me, outside the hotel."

[Reverend B,T, "Tommy" Beamer, (Tommy008's uncle)]

"racism is the dog whistle for the left "..hahahahhah good one KS...the nephew and i salute you.....

[Michael Tomasky]

Did he apologize because of conscience or because of management? This entire little fracas isn't about the alleged substance of the complaint against Chris Hays. It's just right-wing bloggers spotting an opportunity to pile on and bully a liberal. And sure, liberal bloggers sometimes do similar things on issues that push liberal hot buttons. But there's something different about this one.

I don't want to put any words in his mouth, but Hayes was, I believe, trying to talk about the way certain words are used as bludgeons against dissenters. "Freedom" being an obvious example from the Bush years. If you opposed Bush-Cheney policies, supposedly, at least in the minds of some, you were against freedom itself. That of course was contemptible and directly counter to every laudable value this country stands for.

But "freedom," in the above debate, is kind of an abstraction. With soldiers it's much more concrete because you're talking about actual human beings putting their actual lives at risk. I'm the first to say I couldn't do it (not that they'd want me anyway). But the objectionable thing here is not the idea that soldiers are heroes. The objectionable thing is that there is a kind of blackmail associated with words like these, the majority saying to the minority that if you don't agree with us about X, it's the stockade for you. It's always been an ugly impulse; see Ibsen's Enemy of the People for starters. And in this country, the home of the First Amendment, it's more than ugly. It's unpatriotic.

I think of most soldiers as extremely brave people, and I recognize full well that they are risking their lives for our country. But I want to applaud them on my terms, not breitbart.com's terms. Soldiers, I'm confident, are mature enough to have an intelligent conversation about all this. It's a shame that in this political culture, such a conversation is basically impossible. I hope Chris doesn't stop trying to have them as a result of this.

[KS]

Tom Leykis is a low information voter.

[Reverend B,T, "Tommy" Beamer, (Tommy008's uncle)]

may God Bless Don Trump...he's spotlighting a speehc made in the noneties where Obama says he was born inKenya nad raised i Indonesia...i always thought that birth certificate they produced was a ringer........this isuue isn't over and done with....keep after it Donnie.....

[Reverend B,T, "Tommy" Beamer, (Tommy008's uncle)]

it's official- Texas just put Romney over the top. It's Romney versus Fauxbama in November.....