Open thread: day one after the repeal of DADT...

Marriage equality may be in sight.

Comments

[The Original Andrew]

At the time of DADT's inception, 50% of Americans were in favor of it. Only 20% of Americans are for it at the time of it's repeal. A clear sign that the pillars of conservatism are eroding.

[Mysterion]

To quote Craig Ferguson: It's a great day for America! I'm not gay myself, but I served in the Army and saw many good soldiers who were discharged for no good reason when they could have been a positive asset to our nation's defense. Finally common sense begins to prevail.

However, I did hear some woman on KIRO yesterday morning decrying Obama and his "San Francisco military", though. I don't know who it was, but if she's running for office somewhere, she needs to be voted against.

[Sleeping with bears]

A sad day for America's Armed Forces. I have two buds in the military and they tell me that due to this repeal of DADT they will be getting out after doing 13 and 15 years respectively. forget retiring. Not worth it anymore and rumors around the scuttlebutt they say is that the Military is going to have to use the same stop-gap measures used at teh beginning of the Iraq War to fill critical ratings for a long time.

[Pete]

SWB's friends are idiots. There have been gays in militaries since the beginning of militaries. All the repeal of DADT does is allow good soldiers to not have to worry about being drummed out of their jobs (or careers) for reasons that have nothing to do with their competence.

The Pentagon's own survey showed that an overwhelming majority of soldiers, enlisted and commission, had no problem with the repeal of DADT. The few homophobes that do just need to suck it up. In the non-sexual sense. That's what real soldiers do.

Oh, and I'll bet even more disgruntled bigots left the armed forces when Truman desegregated them, too. Seemed to work out just fine.

[The Original Andrew]

" I have two buds in the military and they tell me that due to this repeal of DADT they will be getting out after doing 13 and 15 years respectively"

Good, get the fuck out, bigots. I don't know where they got the idea that the US is a Christian theocracy. This is a free country full of unique people. Unique people should be allowed to defend this country to. It's very unpatriotic to say that defending America only means defending Christian-Americans. If you sign up for the armed forces, you had better fight on behalf of every American, not just ones you prefer more than others.

[Chucks]

Where do you clowns get the idea that this is a conservative/liberal issue? You really do just make shit up to support your own opinions. I was back in the service dept of the dealership I'm working at now and 3 techs and a saleman were yammering on about DADT. The two techs going on and on about how bad it is for the military to be filled with fags, lezbo's and other queers are both Christian Democrats. The defender of gay rights was the salesman that happens to be Republican.
There are people that don't accept gays on both sides of the aisle as well as defenders on both sides.

Just accept that we are growing as a nation. We still have a ways to go but we are getting there, in spite of all you bigoted democrats.

[Fair & Balanced]

Now that Gregoire is taking a hard line against the striking teachers, will Dori apologize for so badly mischaracterizing the Governor's stance on the issue?

[Fair & Balanced]

"Just accept that we are growing as a nation."

I don't accept that. Liberals are still the same as they ever were. It's conservatives who are coming to understand, after decades of foot-dragging, that gays are Americans too.

[Sleeping with bears]

"Unique people should be allowed to defend this country to."

Sounds good. But suppose a blind person wants to enlists. Or better yet an overly obese person wants to enlist. Should the services open the door for them also.

They are unique. They can still hold a gun and pull a trigger. But is that someone you want next to you when the chips are one the line. Some General once said that he doesnt care who jumps into the foxhole with him. Funny thing though is a General would never be in foxhole so his opinion is moot.

As far as the survey goes. Ever hear of the saying...

"if in doubt charlie out."

If not think about it. If yes then you know what soldiers do when given a piece of paper and they have no idea of what to answer.

[Chucks]

Charles Manson and Gary Ridgway are Americans to. WTF does that have to do with anything?

[Sleeping with bears]

You bring up a good point Chucks. Instead of throwing those like Ridgeway in jail, force them to serve thier country in the military. And lets not stop at murderers. Lets put rapist in there also. I sure all the female soldiers would love to have a rapist jump into thier foxhole when the going gets tough.

[Leftist Radio Fail]

Now Michael can serve openly, congrats, fagola!

[SGT, USARMY]

Chucks,
Note, no one referenced republicans or democrats. You equated bigots to republicans. Sad slip on your part.

Teddy bare,
Ask your bud about fitness requirements. All solders need to comply.

[Chucks]

Sgt, See The Original Andrew's first post re the pillars of conservatism. There are bigots in both the democrat party and some in the Republican Party.
Accepting gay people has been evolving for decades. Most people in this country have gotten past their prejudices, but there is still plenty of room for growth on both sides of the aisle.
What strikes me as strange is how the black community generally still has a problem with it.

[Sleeping with bears]

Sarge really. You dont see the folly of that argument. Question. Why is there two different requirements for Male and Female?

[SGT USARMY]

Chucks,
you are answering your own question. Blacks can be conservative and democrats. They can also be anti-gay religious types. IE, bigots.

Still, no one equated bigot to republicans.no one but you.

[SGT USARMY]

Bear,
i have to shorten your name because I'm using a cell phone.

Think of it this way ' no blind, ingrate, obese, lezbo, rapist' need apply.

This goes for hetro, deft, under 4foot 16 year old men.

[The Original Andrew]

chucks, you're comparing gays to Charles Manson and Gary Ridgway - and you want to be taken seriously?

[The Original Andrew]

You can't compare gays to the blind or obese because being gay is not a physical disability. Is there anyone with half a brain here who can defend DADT?

[The Original Andrew]

"Sgt, See The Original Andrew's first post re the pillars of conservatism"

Supression of equal rights and access for gays is a tenet of conservative politics. That's just a fact.

[For Your Information]

There’s also another qualification, these armed forces personal are active in the military. So they have already satisfied the “requirements” to serve. To ask if we will allow a blind person to serve is also asking will we lower the requirements to enter service. And, as we see, being gay is not an impediment to serve. We know this because we have not lowered those standards and gays are throughout the military.

[Sleeping with bears]

So FYI and Andrew, its ok for the military to discriminate due to disabilities but not sexual preference. Wait, there is a law against discriminating because of ones disabilities. Double standard? Must be because i dont see you running to your representitive to complain. Go figure.

[Sleeping with bears]

"Think of it this way ' no blind, ingrate, obese, lezbo, rapist' need apply."

"Lezbo"

How funny, one who comes on here defending gays in the military now wants to ban a segment of them. To funny.

[The Original Andrew]

"There’s also another qualification, these armed forces personal are active in the military. So they have already satisfied the “requirements” to serve. To ask if we will allow a blind person to serve is also asking will we lower the requirements to enter service. And, as we see, being gay is not an impediment to serve. We know this because we have not lowered those standards and gays are throughout the military. "

That's very nuanced. Have you looked who posts here?

[For Your Information]

What are you saying Andrew?

[For Your Information]

Never mind, I get it.

[sparky]

The Supreme Court just denied a stay of execution for Troy Davis. Randy Steidl sat on death row in IL for 16 years before being completely exonerated.... the fact is that the system is run by humans... as such there will always be errors... i've seen varying estimates that claim that between 4-8% of people on death row are factually innocent of the crime for which they were convicted.

once you execute someone there is nothing that can be done. if some piece of evidence could prove their innocence it's useless. That's why I favor LWOP.

From all that i've read in regards to this trial, it's a travesty.,, no murder weapon, disregarding alternate suspects, and many of the witnesses recanting testimony claiming the police coerced them.

I hope that we didn't execute another innocent man.

[For Your Information]

Sleeping with bears, I’ll try to encapsulate what Andrew, SGT and I are iterating. People with disabilities are not being discriminated against for the same reason you are not a rocket scientist. You’re just not qualified. Gays are in fact being discriminated against because they are qualified but someone found something in their private life which was displeasing to that person. It’s like finding someone in your employment which is secretly left-handed. Would you fire the left-handed person?

And I think you’re reading SGT’s post wrong. But, I’m guessing you’re not an English major either.

[The Original Andrew]

"So FYI and Andrew, its ok for the military to discriminate due to disabilities but not sexual preference. Wait, there is a law against discriminating because of ones disabilities. Double standard? "

That's false. If someone is wheelchair bound and you're hiring for a roofer position, you aren't obligated to hire that disabled appliant. You wouldn't want a wheelchair on a roof, you wouldn't want a wheelchair in a battle field.

[The Original Andrew]

"That's why I favor LWOP."

How about option #3, put them in some truly fucked up gulag. Work them to the bone, but don't let them die. They might wish for a death that won't come. The victim's family is more than satisfied with this.

And if it turns out they're innocent, release them and give them a two hundred grand for every year they spent wrongfully imprisoned.

[Johnny Sombrerro]

Sparky, It is Georgia, not the rest of the country so they have to continue their quest at genocide after they lost the 'woar of Northern Ahgression' and the Civil Rights act. So the rest of the union really is smarter than a 3rd grade state like GA.

[Chucks]

White supremacist gang member Lawrence Brewer was executed this evening for the dragging death of James Byrd Jr, a black man from Texas. Both he and Troy Davis, the cop killer in Georgia have had their due process, with multiple appeals back and forth from the state and federal levels.
Both were proved guilty after thorough reviews and have now paid for the lives that they took.

[Johnny Sombrerro]

No... Troy Davis is not an even a close equivalence to some bubbas dragging a guy to a bloody stump. Several witnesses in the Davis case have recanted along with several jurors.

[Chucks]

He had numerous trials and no matter how many times it is attempted to be twisted he was a murdering psychopath.

The shell casings for the person Troy shot in the face and the bullets that killed the cop matched.

There weren't 9 witnesses, there were 34 eyewitnesses for the state, he murdered this cop in a burger king parking lot.

Among the many witnesses who did not recant were three Air Force officers and airmen who witnessed the shooting of which one said "you don't forget someone who stands over and shoots someone"

Three of the "recantations" were from Friends of Davis and were unbelievable - one said he was no longer sure he saw Davis shoot the cop even though he was standing five feet away. One supposed recantation wasn't a recantation at all, the homeless guys girlfriend rather reiterated all relevant parts of her testimony.

Only two recanted anything of value and their affidavits were discounted by the court because Davis REFUSED to allow them to testify even though one was in the courtroom. The court warned Davis refusing to call them would make their changed story worthless he refused, suggesting their lawyer written affidavits would not stand up to cross examination

More than a dozen courts looked at this case and refused to overturn his death sentence, because he was a cold blooded murderer.
It's true that the bulk of the evidence against Davis was eyewitness testimony. That tends to happen when you shoot someone in a busy Burger King parking lot.
A black man killing a white man, A white man killing a black man. They both got what they bought and paid for when they took the lives of others.
Sorry, but living in Parkland, I am a little sensitive to cop killers, and there is just no valid defense or justification for what Brewer did.

[For Your Information]

Good grief, Chuck. You spent some time in the law enforcement community. You should be able to dig deeper. And when I say deeper, I mean your mind.

[KS]

Is there any credible evidence that Troy Davis is innocent and didn't kill the police officer ? Haven't seen any yet. Mumia Abdul-Jamaal ought to fry but he won't - he is a convicted cop killer - he definitely does not deserve to be free ever again.

NorMAN GoldMAN did not seem to believe he was guilty, but never did he allude to the evidence to support his contention- he's a one man ranting machine, after listening a while, it just sounded like he has similar talking points as conservative ranters, but just substitutes Republicans in place of Democrats in his rants.

[Chucks]

Good grief, FYI. You are buying in to that which a bunch of lawyers, lawyers that will twist an truth in to an unrecognisable pile of dung to get a "victory".
The guy killed another human being in an act of violence with malice aforethought. A parking lot full of people witnessed it. Forensics validated it. The courts verified it.
Accept it. He is unlikely to re-offend. The world is a little safer today because two evil men are dead.

[For Your Information]

“Is there any credible evidence that Troy Davis is innocent and didn't kill the police officer ? “
Posted by: KS | September 21, 2011 at 10:15 PM

Uhhh, yes, KS. That is why it’s controversial.

[For Your Information]

“You are buying in to that which a bunch of lawyers”
Posted by: Chucks | September 21, 2011 at 10:28 PM

Come on Chucks, lawyers helped you with your bankruptcy. Were they twisting the truth then?

[Johnny Sombrerro]

Wardens from prisons in 7 states that have the death penalty along with right winger Bob Barr have asked the courts to intervene.

[For Your Information]

By the way, if one of those men are innocent…there is a killer at large.

[The Original Andrew]

I forgot; what does this have to do with DADT?

[Chucks]

Open thread Andrew.
Besides, I was tiring of folks trying to draw me into a debate against the end of DADT when I really believe it is a good thing. DADT served its purpose. It helped the military and the rest of the country grow in to accepting gay soldiers.
I was glad Sparky brought up the execution. The guy was in no way exonerated as she suggested. He was guilty as sin and proven such. But, as usual, her heart is in the right place.
Good night.

[SGT USARMY]

Chucks, I’m not trying to draw you into a debate about “Don’t ask don’t tell”. I’m pointing out your misunderstanding of what you thought you red (read). Andrew is correct, and you have proved it. But take heart, you are not unlike many conservatives. You object to the things you are most likely guilty of.

[Sleeping with bears]

"That's false. If someone is wheelchair bound and you're hiring for a roofer position, you aren't obligated to hire that disabled appliant. You wouldn't want a wheelchair on a roof, you wouldn't want a wheelchair in a battle field."

You just blew up your own argument again. You bring up some good points but, why cant the Armed Services not hire someone who is gay and will be sharing the same showers as 70 others. you might like some guy looking at your junk, but what if the other 69 dont like it. Should we now say its ok for men to share showers with females. As far as a wheel chair on a roof or battlefield, if they can do the job, (there are flats roofs out there and we do have disabled people who drive cars) whats the difference than your support for gays in the military. I have some good friends who are both blind and disabled who would like to join the military but cant. Why dont you support thier desire to serve thier country instead of making up what you believe are roadblocks to a dream.

[Sleeping with bears]

And i dont know how i misread that word "Lezbo". Maybe you need to look up the word FYI.

[Chucks]

There are plenty of non-combat related jobs or civilian jobs that can be done by the wheel chair bound or folks with other disabilities. I see no reason why people can't serve.
Just don't give a gun to one and then require the Army Corpse of Engineers to build a ramp to the roof in a combat zone to meet ADA requirements.

[The Original Andrew]

"why cant the Armed Services not hire someone who is gay and will be sharing the same showers as 70 others. you might like some guy looking at your junk, but what if the other 69 dont like it."

Who gives a shit what they do or don't like, so long as the gay person isn't bothering anyone. If the gay guy get's a boner, or flirts with the other guys, treat it the same way you'd treat a straigh male who did those same things. There's no sign at a public pool forbidding gays from using the public showers.

Gays guys aren't attracted to every guy they see, and they aren't taking a shower to check guys out, they're there for a practical purpose.

Why doesn't the army simply put divisions between the shower heads if they're so concerned about it?

Aren't servicemen supposed to be brave? Being afraid that a gay guy thinks you're hot is like being afraid of a spider that's ten feet away from you.

[SGT USARMY]

It's very rarer to see open bay showers these days. the way I see it, this sort of discrimination occurs after a solder has been accepted. In Bear's world, even if you changed the rules to allow a blind solder, the blind solder can't be gay.

[Radio Queen]

Banning openly gay men & women from military service was one of the most blatantly discriminatory practices in our recent history. DADT was at least a weak olive branch offered by Clinton, because he had campaigned on the promise to allow all citizens to serve in the military regardless of sexual orientation. Glad the laws are finally dead--sadly, the discrimination, in other forms, will live on.

I like Andrew's gulag option in lieu of the death penalty. Years ago, a friend of mine advocated for dropping these criminals into a secure, guarded "pen" in the middle of the desert. Only the most basic supplies would be delivered, escapees would be shot on sight, and it would be up to the occupants to devise their own society. Now that would make for some very interesting reality TV.