take your answer off the air...

  • HorsesAss.Org: the straight poop on WA politics & the press
    progressive brilliance from the guy who pointed out Tim Eyman's nascent horse's-assedness
  • Talker's Magazine
    The quirky talk radio trade mag. Check the Talk Radio Research Project- it's not very scientific, but places on the top 15 talkers list (scroll down to Talk Radio Audiences By Size)) are as hotly contested as Emmys (and mean just about as much).
  • The Advocate
    No, not THAT Advocate... it's the Northwest Progressive Institute's Official Blog.
  • Media Matters
    Documentation of right-wing media in video, audio and text.
  • Orcinus
    home of David Neiwert, freelance investigative journalist and author who writes extensively about far-right hate groups
  • Hominid Views
    "People, politics, science, and whatnot" Darryl is a statistician who fights imperialism with empiricism, gives good links and wry commentary.
  • Jesus' General
    An 11 on the Manly Scale of Absolute Gender, a 12 on the Heavenly Scale of the 10 Commandments and a 6 on the earthly scale of the Immaculately Groomed.
  • Howie in Seattle
    Howie Martin is the Abe Linkin' of progressive Seattle.
  • Streaming Radio Guide
    Hellishly long (5795!) list of radio streaming, steaming on the Internets.
  • The Naked Loon
    News satire -- The Onion in the Seattle petunia patch.
  • Irrational Public Radio
    "informs, challenges, soothes and/or berates, and does so with a pleasing vocal cadence and unmatched enunciation. When you listen to IPR, integrity washes over you like lava, with the pleasing familiarity of a medium-roast coffee and a sensible muffin."
  • The Maddow Blog
    Here's the hyper-interactive La Raych of MSNBC. daily show-vids, freakishly geeky research, and classy graphics.
  • Northwest Broadcasters
    The AM, FM, TV and digital broadcasters of Northwest Washington, USA and Southwest British Columbia, Canada. From Kelso, WA to the northern tip of Vancouver Island, BC - call letters, formats, slogans, networks, technical data, and transmitter maps. Plus "recent" news.
  • News Corpse
    The Internet's chronicle of media decay.
  • The Moderate Voice
    The voice of reason in the age of Obama, and the politics of the far-middle.
  • News Hounds
    Dogged dogging of Fox News by a team who seems to watch every minute of the cable channel so you don't have to.
  • HistoryLink
    Fun to read and free encyclopedia of Washington State history. Founded by the late Walt Crowley, it's an indispensable tool and entertainment source for history wonks and surfers alike.

right-wing blogs we like

  • The Reagan Wing
    Hearin lies the real heart of Washington State Republicans. Doug Parris runs this red-meat social conservative group site which bars no holds when it comes to saying who they are and who they're not; what they believe and what they don't; who their friends are and where the rest of the Republicans can go. Well-written, and flaming.
  • Orbusmax
    inexhaustible Drudgery of NW conservative news
  • The Radio Equalizer
    prolific former Seattle KVI, KIRO talk host speaks authoritatively about radio.
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« Conan o'brien's dreams | Main | Old Seattle Radio Saturday: KOMO's revisionism by omissionism »

August 19, 2011



Yeah... Jake had a bad experience with a sleazy car sales dirt bag and the owner called him after realizing that it was going public.
The owner also called Dori and they kissed and made up.
Sounds like standard issue face saving.
Most car dealers are scum.
Otherwise commissioned sales would truly be a thing of the past.
Scum... Pure scum.

Coug & Annie

So they kissed and made up, and KIRO pulled the entire conversation off the web? The truth to Dori Monson, who claims everyday to speak truth to power, is apparently subject to the tender sensibilities of real or potential advertisers. He boldly disses the governor, and the mayor, but bows and scrapes to a car dealer. Why does anybody give any credibility to anything heard out of the mouth of this moral midget?


What do you expect from somebody that pimps the poorest quality SUV marketed here (Land Rover).


The Governor doesn't advertise on KIRO.
The conversation I heard about the car dealership was that the owner wanted problems to be brought to him directly and didn't want to talk about it on the air.
What seems pretty sick here is that both Jake and Dori seemed to think the owner of the business is a "good guy" and was oblivious to the behavior of his sales staff...
That's never the case.
The bait and switch that was pulled on jake is standard car sales 101.
It is odd that they would pull the podcast though.

David Tatelman

Jake's 42? He acts like a wide-eyed child awed by the wisdom of Dori.


It was funny the other day when Dori was whining that Gov. Gregoire won't come anywhere near his show. Well, I expect if Dori had spent so much time on the air flat-out calling her corrupt, a thief, being bought-off by the tribal gambling concerns, and so forth she might be a bit more inclined to talk to him. Poor innocent Dori: no one likes him.


Was the complaint legitimate, or were Joke and Dori using the airwaves to settle a personal score with a car dealership?

What's this about a bait'n'switch? The year is 2011. If you do even a mild amount of research on the Internet before stepping foot on the car lot, there isn't much a dealer can do to deceive you. You'll know the invoice and the suggested retail price. Look further and you can see if the model of car you're interested in is a hot seller or not, and how it compares to competing models, and infer the salesman's willingness to sell the car for an amount closer to invoice. In fact, thanks to email, you can submit offers to four or five dealerships all selling the same car within a 50 mile area and play them against eachother, and only then show at the dealer to sign some paperwork.

If you're getting jacked around at a car dealership in 2011, well, shit, you deserve it.

Radio Queen

Jake had seen a car advertised, called about it, and made an appt to see it the next day. The salesman called to confirm the appt the following day. Jake and his wife drove all the way down there--only to be told the car wasn't available. Of course, they had several newer, more expensive cars to show them. Classic bait 'n switch.

frank the shank

I heard the show and thought it was odd. Dori has been around long enough to know that this is common practice? The big thing was that Jake had to drive 3 hours to get there. Otherwise jake could have just walked, and it would have been a minor blip. But then it's not really the car dealers fault that Jake lived far away.

Jake should have gone to a KTTH client, Bowen Scarf in Kent. I bought a car from Mel Harn there and it was a wonderful experience. They do not do the haggleing thing, the sticker is what you're going to pay. I do believe you can get a little better deal if you go to a normal dealer and are willing to haggle your ass off, but basically you're looking at a day or so of torture as you shop around for your car.

Buying used is a little trickier than Andrew makes out. You can't do it all by the web because you have to inspect the car in person to know what you're getting. I believe Jake's intended purchase was a used car.


Bowen Scarf is how things should work...
The "no dicker sticker" is how car sales should be, just like buying a loaf of bread.
not sure why the humans continue to let commission sales exist.
Almost as bad as union scum.


Commission sales with proper management is still the best way to serve customers. To get paid, the customer must be satisfied. Keeps the peddler from getting lazy.
The guys at Bowen Scarf get commissions as well. The store is just well managed.


Did he really say three hours? How on god's earth does it take three hours to drive from anywhere in the Puget Sound region to Auburn?

Commission sales are preferable because they actually give a shit. That's a big deal. They return your calls, bring you coffee, find answers to your specific questions, do a lot of the dirty work and hope you will tell all your friends how great they were.

People are lazy. They can't believe a salesman would overcharge them, and yet they couldn't be bothered to figure out a fair value beforehand. People want get the best deal while puting forth no effort. They deserve what they get.

I don't feel bad for people who are suckered during the financing either. You want to take advantage of an financial instrument that gets you a car now instead of four years from now, and you can't be bothered to understand how it works? Expect to get the short end of the stick every time.


The problem with both the haggling over price and the financing mumbo-jumbo is that customers are at a tremendous disadvantage, which many (not all) such dealerships count on and exploit. Dealerships go through the process a few times every day, whereas the average customer only does it once every few years. The dealerships know that the law of averages works in their favor; for every person who's good at the process and does their homework, there's another one (or more) who can get manipulated, bullied or hoodwinked into something unfavorable.

That's an intentional strategy, and Andrew's "it's the buyers' fault!" stance smacks of blaming the victims. Yeah, there are common-sense things you can do to prevent crime, and if you don't do them and you get ripped off, you're an idiot. But the person doing the ripping off is still the criminal in the process.


I've always thought commissions were either a way to encourage sellers to bloat the price - more take-home for them - or an incentive to try to get people to sell stuff for which the market isn't exactly clamoring like magazines.

A relic of the old days when men were the primary breadwinners and there was a growing middle class that could afford over-valued items. Items with big profit margins.

I worked for Kodak and that was the scenario there: all men; big ticket photographic equipment when Kodak was king; and a market that wanted it. It didn't include the average walk-in customer who paid retail.

Now I see most sales commissions in health care, real estate and technology to large-scale buyers. And vehicles. A friend in real estate tells me her commission is divided up several ways so even real estate isn't the cash cow I thought it was. And with all the information out there about buying cars and selling prices, that's probably diminished as well.

The only point of a commission is the incentive it gives to make the sale (the hard sell) and get as much as you can.

And last but not least, we have a really screwed up value system: I'd pay farmers more than people who sell cars if I could. They live on the margins and yet we expect them to supply us with nutritious healthy food. There's no rhyme or reason to how people are paid.

And when traffic is bad, it can take hours getting from one place to another depending on the distance and volume of traffic. For me, getting from north Seattle to Redmond which I've had to do occasionally is a nightmare. But that's just for me - it's unfamiliar and traffic sucks.

And I totally agree with Pete's point about "blaming the victim."


True, that the internet has made it much easier to get a better price on a car...
The car sales business uses the emotion of the customer to squeeze those extra dollars out of them.
Financing is just plain stupid.

Jake told his story and it sounded like they told him the car he wanted was available, but when they arrived...
They were told that it had some mechanical problems and couldn't be taken for a test drive.
Then the dealer showed Jake other more expensive cars.
If customers would refuse to put up with car sales tactics, they would change.
The fact is that most people in America want what they can't afford and buy things anyway...
Because they want them.
Same goes for the people who pay all of that money to watch other people run around playing a game.
Free market works.
If someone will pay the price, it's therefore a fair price.
When people start holding onto their money tighter, prices drop.


Bastard, it is not an even playing field. Free market? There is no such thing in life. There's always a cost whether it be people or nature or something else.


To say the free market works is not to say that life is fair by any means.
(which is why I didn't say that)
The free market is the best system to allow for barter between "the humans".
Our government is responsible for enforcing contracts between people.
Otherwise we would have anarchy.
There is no perfect human management system, but Capitalism and the free market is as good as it gets for a free society.
We can all be angry about those who get piles of money dumped into their laps from family and those who are taller and more attractive...
OK you "Dori bashers" here...
I've just served up a great leaping off platform to go after the homely little guy.
Knock yourselves out.

KS blathers for the halibut

I doubt if Joanie can comprehend or believe what you said about a free market economy. Based on her previous opining, she is of the mindset that a command-control economy (Government controlled economy) works best for evening the playing field, which is of course patently FALSE unless one is part of the proletariat.

All systems are imperfect, but of all the market systems out there, the free market is the most beneficial to the most people (i.e. works the best), especially in a country the size of the USA.

No brace yourself for the obfuscation and strawmen.

KS blathers for the halibut

...Now brace yourself for the obfuscation and strawmen.


You paint with a very wide brush, Bastard. Some would say "regulated capitalism" is the best. Ah, but there' the rub. Whose regulations?

If you contract with a fracker(not sure they are called that) and you pollute my drinking water, what is my recourse?

We live in a social environment. Civilizations come about because humans reach a point where "free" anything doesn't work anymore. That's why it's called "civilized." People need rules to survive. The old west was free market. Did you ever see "Dead Man" with Johnny Depp? You might watch but don't think for one minute it wasn't real. If that's what you want to go back to, we are on our way.

BTW, I notice you said "beneficial" to the most people Why, then, are we losing our middle class and why is the disparity between the classes growing larger and the fewest people have most of the money? Don't go off on a tangent but answer that specific question, please.


KS, if you're so fond of the free market, why are you part of it? Why go to government for a job?


That should be "why aren't you part of it?"


Also, Bastard, how did the Gangster bankers who practiced "free market principles" once deregulation of the banking industry occurred benefit "most people?"

KS blathers for the halibut

Just as predicted the strawmen and obfuscations are flying from the usual suspects.

Joanie, DUH ! I am part of the free market - I am a consumer and prefer it. Davis-Bacon should be done away with, which would lower the cost of large capital projects to taxparyers.

So there's capitolism, the hybrid aka crapitalism and socialism/communism (command control). So you prefer the later - right ?


Talk about obsfucation! If the free market is alive and well and you're part of it, KS, what's your complaint?

Your post doesn't make sense so I'm not going to try to answer it.

BTW, Bastard, I bet they practiced "free market" principles on Easter Island.

KS blathers for the halibut

"BTW, I notice you said "beneficial" to the most people Why, then, are we losing our middle class and why is the disparity between the classes growing larger and the fewest people have most of the money? "

First, explain how the type of economic system has anything to do with your above question. Seems like are defending the command/control commie economic system. Moreover, you are pulling stuff out of the air here - hence; you are obfuscating.

Also, do you think it is right that 50% of taxpayers pay NO Federal Taxes (this includes tax credits they receive to negate the taxes they are assessed).


Bastard made the statements I'm question. I want him to answer. You dance around them and return questions instead of answering mine.

Perhaps Bastard doesn't have an answer either.

Chris Hayes is talking about this very thing on Ring of Fire. If you ever listen to different points of view, you might tune in except that it just ended. More good guests coming up. See, I don't listen to hosts who just rant like Beck and Rush. I get my information from informed people in their various fields. If you listened, you might be able to answer questions instead of avoiding them.



Joanie, you are confusing what I have posted here with what KS has posted...
KS and I agree on this topic, but you're clearly a confused person.

Life is not fair, but we as adults make choices in our lives.
Some of us make better choices than others and I've seen in my lifetime how people want less and less responsibility for the bad choices they make.
Government has been enabling these bad choices and creating a dependant welfare class.
Those are the people who have the biggest problem with capitalism.
If we could give states more "state's rights", then the people who make good decisions can live with other like minded types and the people who make bad choices can clump together until they all wither up and starve since they will run out of resources by sitting around all day working on their poetry and waiting for someone to give them money.
Government can only take care of those types for so long until the system falls in on itself.

By the way...
A car dealer treated Jake like crap and then turned fluffy and nice when potential customers started to find out about it.
An example of the free market.
Other dealers are "free" to treat people better and therefore will get the business of people who want better treatment.
An example of the free market.
Opportunity for others do do a better job and succeed.
Yes, in capitalism... Everyone does as little as possible for getting as much as possible.
It's the market that forces business to do a good job.
It appeals to our human nature of getting what we want.
(Ya' damn Commie.)


"Most car dealers are scum"

Amen. This of course means that RV dealers like Chucks are 48,000 pounds and 45 feet of pure scum.

And I didn't even add the time and money he stole sucking on the gov't teet


You are repeating yourself but not answering the question. Do you not have an answer for it? If not, just say so. Instead of blaming me, just say "I don't know." That would be honest.

And Bastard, talking about an irritating event like Jake's is not an snswer to my question about polluting the drinking water of someone.

That's the difference between the right and the left. We see the broader picture and greater ramifications while you get caught up in "me right now" perspective. The system is working for you so it must be a good system. And your focus is on money. Sorry. That's not enough. But so far, that's all you've given me. No, I am not confused. I am honest and forward looking which is more than I can say for you. Your free market - a contract between you and a fracker - polluted my drinking water. I have no recourse. I don't think you have an answer for what should happen next.

It's the market that forces business to do a good job.

Funny. I heard Alan Greenspan utter those very words during an early apology for the Wall St world-wide debacle. Where have you been the last couple years anyway?

This is the problem with trying to converse with a rightwingers. They make no sense, can answer no questions, only repeat their talking points, and never seem to learn from history. Sorry. That's why I call you idiots.

BTW, did you guys read that Bruce Bartlett(Republican from Reagan's administration) called Perry an idiot? You all make me laugh.


"You dance around them and return questions instead of answering mine."

As RB says, you are confused and you have not yet explained how you arrived at your question. We can move on after you explain the genesis of your question.
As previously stated - Seems like you are defending the command/control commie economic system with your debate. If you want to leave it at that, I'll say OK and concur with Rat Bastard - (Ya' damn Commie.)


I have to tell you how I came to the question before you can answer it?

Hahahahahahahahahaha. That says it all.


Pete says ""it's the buyers' fault!" stance smacks of blaming the victims."

Being subject to rape, or a gun shot, or thievery, makes you a victim. Simply being stupid does not make one a victim.


joanie says "The only point of a commission is the incentive it gives to make the sale (the hard sell) and get as much as you can."

I don't think you even understand how little you understand. Commission is natural. If you own a one-man car dealership, the amount of money you earn as a business is exctly like commission: sell for more, earn more. Commission sales people are really just business partners. It's the people who work hard and get a fixed salary who are the real suckers of the world. When you work harder, someone else else enjoys the fruits of that excess.


I'm not a fiscal conservative, I don't think that whether you receive health care, or whether your house is allowed to burn to the ground should be strictly determined by how you played the money game up to that point.

On the other hand, if you were to pass laws that protect customers from used car sales tactics, it would just make society an even softer target. The solution is for people to wize up to their own limitations and weaknesses rather than try to pass laws that say nobody can exploit those weaknesses.


Joanie, I'm sorry about polluting your drinking water...
If I had known what a fuss you were going to make over it, I never would have done it in the first place.


I guess that means I suffer through it until I die from lack of clean water. Because if my water is polluted, so is everybody elses in the area including yours, huh? That's the answer the free market gives. Thanks for being sorry. :)

Easter Island.


Commission is natural.

I bet it's organic as well.


Everything looks like food to joanie.


Rat Bastard:

By the way...
A car dealer treated Jake like crap and then turned fluffy and nice when potential customers started to find out about it.
An example of the free market.


So every-time someone has a bad retail experience, they need to talk to their friend who has a radio show!!

No problem then!

Actually after all the crap the UAW got after car-mageddon it's interesting to see how the auto dealers (who lean right by all accounts) never cleaned up their act.

I find it interesting that now that Ford and GM have some rather good new small cars, our local dealers continue to push "trucks, trucks, trucks" on the radio and TV. If the big 2.5 fail again it will be because of them, a new model for vehicle sales needs to emerge and state dealer franchise protection laws need to go away.


You can't make being stupid against the law. Often times the bait'n'switch is legal. The "catch" is often in the fine print. Maybe the car was inoperable when Jake showed up. False advertisting is against the law, but you don't even have to lie to manipulate a lazy, irresponsible consumer.


Are you still living at home, Andrew?


You must be stalking the wrong person.


I take that to mean yes. You sound like someone who still lives at home.


Is Andrew supposed to live someplace other than his home?

Businesses do some crummy things at times and the only way they suffer from it is when consumers spread the word.
Good businesses want repeat customers, but many often trade ripping people off for it.
So yes... It does help Jake that his buddy Dori could freak out on the air about it.
And the car dealers are pushing trucks because that's what so many people want.
Most of the greenies who would buy one of those little electric sardine cans are already riding their bikes to work and would rather spend their money at the PCC instead of on a new car.
I live at home too by the way.


Andrew got it, Bastard. You have a hard enough time answering for yourself much less for Andrew.

I think you're getting ExPat's posts confused with mine. :)


So Rat Bastard, presumably. Apple has completely missed your point (and pretty much any other company on earth). Boeing should still be selling 707s.

Maybe you don't work in sales. Advertizing is used mostly to introduce and familiarize people with your latest product. Awareness if you will.

Pushing > 20mpg at $3.69 a gallon trucks is a dead end. Those people are probably already, customers, you want new customers.

New customers is what you need to increase from 11% market share.

If you don't advertize the Cruze, Focus, Fiesta you won't sell any of the things. And the fact that that consumer reports hints that the new Honda Civic is a de-contented POS, seems to suggest that a domestic dealer should try to get some of those customers into your showroom.

These punters maybe not "GAF" about the latest 4WD Silverado, 500 ci , stepside , crewcab dually that you happen to have 50 in stock.

The weekend cowboy, is dead! The car dealers need to step up or step aside.Let me order my car from the car company directly.



Being subject to rape, or a gun shot, or thievery, makes you a victim. Simply being stupid does not make one a victim.

No, being "stupid" doesn't make one a victim. But being lied to, being subjected to bait and switch and all the other carefully refined techniques used to manipulate people into paying more or buying something they can't afford - that does. And there are plenty of quite intelligent people that can fall prey to it, because they're not familiar with the process. Or maybe assuming someone is being honest makes one "stupid" and worthy of being exploitred. That's a pretty cynical outlook, Andrew, and morally indefensible.

On another note, it's not like Joanie needs me to defend her, but since when does advocating some regulation (as she has done) make someone a communist (as both RB and KS subsequently accused her of)?

As for Andrew, if he lives at home (meaning, presumably, his parents' home - otherwise, we all live at "home" unless we're homeless) - so what? What does that have to do with anything?

Trying to remember an instance where hyperbole or ad hominem attacks in a comment thread ever convinced anyone of anything. Not coming up with any examples.


joanie, I can't tell you apart from chucks anymore. You have yet to counter any of my points with a thought out argument of your own.

ExPatBrit, iirc, pickup trucks are higher profit margin while the economy cars are lower margin. They price the bottom end cars like the Ford Fiesta as low as possible to get customers onto the car lot, similar to the bait and switch, but you can actualy buy the Fiesta if the salesman fails to upsell. The Chevy Volt is a loss leader. Chevy loses money on every one they sell.

"Advertizing is used mostly to introduce and familiarize people with your latest product"

That's not true. They're first and foremost about brand awareness. Most ads advertize established products or promotional sales on established products. Especially when it comes to cars. More people want cheap than want new. Besides, many "new" products are just redressed or barely improved versions of old products, again, especially with cars.


Pete says "being lied to, being subjected to bait and switch and all the other carefully refined techniques used to manipulate people into paying more or buying something they can't afford - that does"

You can perform a bait and switch and still tell the truth. In fact, you don't even have to be dishonest. There's nothing wrong with saying "yeah, that cars over there, but since you're here, check out this sexy car right beside us..."

"Or maybe assuming someone is being honest makes one "stupid" and worthy of being exploitred."

I assume people are honest all the time... when they aren't trying to sell me something. You should know that there is a conflict of interest over the fact that your new "friend" happens to want the contents of your wallet. People want to like in la la land and pretend friendly sales people are just friendly people. It's naive and lazy. Don't we all wish life was that simple?

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