take your answer off the air...

  • HorsesAss.Org: the straight poop on WA politics & the press
    progressive brilliance from the guy who pointed out Tim Eyman's nascent horse's-assedness
  • Talker's Magazine
    The quirky talk radio trade mag. Check the Talk Radio Research Project- it's not very scientific, but places on the top 15 talkers list (scroll down to Talk Radio Audiences By Size)) are as hotly contested as Emmys (and mean just about as much).
  • The Advocate
    No, not THAT Advocate... it's the Northwest Progressive Institute's Official Blog.
  • Media Matters
    Documentation of right-wing media in video, audio and text.
  • Orcinus
    home of David Neiwert, freelance investigative journalist and author who writes extensively about far-right hate groups
  • Hominid Views
    "People, politics, science, and whatnot" Darryl is a statistician who fights imperialism with empiricism, gives good links and wry commentary.
  • Jesus' General
    An 11 on the Manly Scale of Absolute Gender, a 12 on the Heavenly Scale of the 10 Commandments and a 6 on the earthly scale of the Immaculately Groomed.
  • Howie in Seattle
    Howie Martin is the Abe Linkin' of progressive Seattle.
  • Streaming Radio Guide
    Hellishly long (5795!) list of radio streaming, steaming on the Internets.
  • The Naked Loon
    News satire -- The Onion in the Seattle petunia patch.
  • Irrational Public Radio
    "informs, challenges, soothes and/or berates, and does so with a pleasing vocal cadence and unmatched enunciation. When you listen to IPR, integrity washes over you like lava, with the pleasing familiarity of a medium-roast coffee and a sensible muffin."
  • The Maddow Blog
    Here's the hyper-interactive La Raych of MSNBC. daily show-vids, freakishly geeky research, and classy graphics.
  • Northwest Broadcasters
    The AM, FM, TV and digital broadcasters of Northwest Washington, USA and Southwest British Columbia, Canada. From Kelso, WA to the northern tip of Vancouver Island, BC - call letters, formats, slogans, networks, technical data, and transmitter maps. Plus "recent" news.
  • News Corpse
    The Internet's chronicle of media decay.
  • The Moderate Voice
    The voice of reason in the age of Obama, and the politics of the far-middle.
  • News Hounds
    Dogged dogging of Fox News by a team who seems to watch every minute of the cable channel so you don't have to.
  • HistoryLink
    Fun to read and free encyclopedia of Washington State history. Founded by the late Walt Crowley, it's an indispensable tool and entertainment source for history wonks and surfers alike.

right-wing blogs we like

  • The Reagan Wing
    Hearin lies the real heart of Washington State Republicans. Doug Parris runs this red-meat social conservative group site which bars no holds when it comes to saying who they are and who they're not; what they believe and what they don't; who their friends are and where the rest of the Republicans can go. Well-written, and flaming.
  • Orbusmax
    inexhaustible Drudgery of NW conservative news
  • The Radio Equalizer
    prolific former Seattle KVI, KIRO talk host speaks authoritatively about radio.
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« It's all rush, rush, rush- whatever happened to glenn beck? | Main | Happy "felafaloofah day," bill o'reilly! »

October 13, 2009

Comments

chucks

It is really cool the way we can stalk both Rush and Glenn at the same time, in the same posts.
It is really a shome that there are no liberal/pergressive talkers that are worth talking about.

AuthenticAndrew

Why don't you quit stalking Obama and healthcare reform?

mrogi

Limbaugh is beloved by black conservatives. Liberals who try to smear and dismiss Rush as a racist cannot overcome that fact.

AuthenticAndrew

Who gives a shit?

Drew

Yes, they love him like slaves knew to love their masters. Even the RNC chairman had to apologize to avoid a beating. Looks like the Pills Buried Doughboy will not be allowed to own an NFL team because of his cracker remarks towards blacks. Limbaugh's feelin' the love tonight.

Brian

Ha! It's going to be fun to watch Limbaugh's law suit against CNN or whoever made-up the fake slavery quote.

blathering michael

Boyo, I'm glad to have all this great blathering back... I felt so alone the last few nights when the comments went away. I cried, I slept, I cried some more...

SAnd BTW, chucks: I'm a liberal! I don't like conservative talkers... they're hurting America.

Brian

hey Chuck, we could talk about Ed Schultz. I just heard him say that health insurance company profits have gone up over 400% in the past 10 years. The average profit margin for that industry is around 3.3%, sooo, that would mean their profit margin 10 years ago was below 1%. Those bastards!
Either "Big Eddie" is lying through his teeth or he's using that "new math" that Joanie is so fond of with the kids.

chucks

And Michael, you are one of the best libs I know, in spite of the perverse bend you have on government taking over more of our life.
Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter are hooking up to create the next generation of powerful conservetive talker.
By the way, do any of you know what the Senate advanced today? I did not get a chance to read or even review the legislation.

mrogi

It is poetic irony that arch conservative Limbaugh wants to join the most socialist organization in America. The worst and the best teams in the NFL share all profits equally.

Drew

That either makes Pills a hypocrite, or incredibly stupid. It's OK though- his comments are tripping up his attempts to buy a football franchise, which is hilarious.

Mark C.

I would NOT like to be a fly on the wall in the consummation of that union!

And fuggeddabuddit: you'll get a chance to read our bill when we say you can.

AuthenticAndrew

Conservatives are highly unprincipled people. They rail against public schools yet they send their kids. They decry subsidies but then look the other way when it involves sports because they LOOOOOVER their football. Their hypocritical ideology of convenience is a symptom of American decadance. They don't sacrifice anything. Can anyone name one conservative that went on a hunger strike for their cause? After they become fat and happy on the backs of others they egotistically claim it was their hard work that got them where they are. They'll claim they could have done it without the help of slaves, workers rights, unions, public works, market regulations, etc.

chucks

It would be great if Rush Limbaugh bought our division rival, The St Louis Rams. As even I recognise that NFL football and The Seahawks come before all things political, it would be nice to have all of the lib hate vendors coming together as one to boo and taunt the Rams whenever they have the ball. You libs can boo Rush while we on the right boo their offense and we all come together in the 12th man spirit to get our free Jones Soda whenever the Rams come to town.
It would be a wonderful thing.

Coiler

We don't drink HFCS, that shit is for the right.

joanie

The average profit margin for that industry is around 3.3%,

Maybe they'd have a wider margin if they didn't pay their CEO's $102,000 an hour.

Ya think, Brian?


Or do you think, Brian.


You know, Brian, Mr. Math Magic, profit margins can be very, very tiny but if the pie is big enough, profits can be quite tasty. And, yes, health care costs have skyrocketed. Put your thinking cap on and try to figure out where it is all going. Duh.


And next time you quote a profit margin, source it.

AuthenticAndrew

I can't agree with the CEO salary bashing. In capitalism there are a lot of recipients of large sums of money who work less than CEOs, such as investors or those Wall Street derivative makers who earn $600,000 a year raping America. The boards of directors sign off on the CEO's salary. They're equally culpable. Picking on CEOs is arbitrary and reactionary.

joanie

I don't think I judged whether or not they deserved it. I'm responding to the matter of profit.

But, since you bring it up: no, I don't think CEO's need $102,000 an hour when they earn it from denying health care to Americans.

joanie

BTW, your simplistic view of American capitalism surprises me. Ours is not pure capitalism so to lump all of them together seems somewhat arbitrary and reactive to me.

AuthenticAndrew

So you think CEOs should receive less even thought they deserve what they currently get? That makes even less sense. If you simply want to take money from rich people all you have to do is increase the tax rate on the highest income brackets. That would cover CEOs and all varieties of rich people.

The realtionship between CEO pay and employee health benefits is highly tangential. I'm willing to bet that the companies that pay the most to CEOs probably have decent health plans for their employees also.

I want universal health coverage as much as the next guy but the issue of highy paid CEOs is just a smoke screen meant to confuse and distract.

AuthenticAndrew

If we really want universal health coverage I think HIV/AIDS patients should go around cities and town spilling blood everywhere, and once it catches on people could just spill red food coloring with an dropper and it would scare the shit out of everybody. If conservatives have taught me anything it's that fear is a strong motivator.

joanie

I don't know what they deserve. Do you? I've heard several economists - Baker, Reich - say that Boards have abdicated their feduciary duties.

So, are you the expert now?

What does your response have to do with my response to Brian? Do you have a better one? Instead of arguing a point I did not make to Brian, why not make your own?


As for $102,000 an hour being frivolous, you'll not talk me out of it. But continue to try if you must.

joanie

I am curious, Andrew, of your opinion of the government's takeover in Detroit. His demand of the resignation of the CEO of GM?

Should that decision have been left up to the Board?

Are you for a hands-off policy altogether?

Do you think the American economy is growing? Where does all the money come from? Is there a finite amount of money to go around?

I'd like an economics lesson from you. I'm really curious to know these things?

Drew

AA, there are some pretty decent CEOs out there, who value both the shareholders who chose to invest in the company, and the employees who made the CEO's fortune for him/her. But there are obviously a few who choose to give the finger to those employees- they do it by working out sweetheart deals with their boards on severance packages and ridiculous bonuses for themselves, and bu slashing pay and benefits for the aforementioned workers. There are so many of these in fact, that the average CEO now makes in one hour what his average worker makes in one year. The CEO pay in this country far outpaced inflation a long time ago, while hourly pay has remained relatively flat in comparison. If the wage earners in this country had pay that kept up with their CEOs since 1984 (it can't be ignored who was president then), their hourly would be around $23.50.

AuthenticAndrew

You are misunderstanding me completely. I never said CEOs deserve what they earn, just that picking them out of a group of disproportionately wealthy people makes no sense and doesn't help anyone's cause.

Workers wages are mostly influenced by the labor market. Cutting the pay of CEOs won't mean that all the other employees suddenly get pay raises. The money will go somewhere but it definately won't go to paying employees more than what they're worth on the job market. Limitting CEO pay only gets rid of one particular symptom and does nothing to fix the big problems.

joanie

You are misunderstanding me completely. I never said CEOs deserve what they earn,

Exactly what you did to me when you carved out of context a portion of my response to Brian.

Workers wages are mostly influenced by the labor market.

Only in a pure capitalistic society which American is not. And you should know that. Labor unions and the Wagner Act were meant to mitigate the ravages of pur capitalism. And you didn't answer my questions. Do you have answers?


Now, instead of slicing and dicing Drew's and my comments; why not offer your solution for the "big problems?"

AuthenticAndrew

I don't have time to play twenty questions. You said "Maybe they'd have a wider margin if they didn't pay their CEO's $102,000 an hour." Let's just deal with that.

CEO pay is a function of supply and demand, so correct me if I'm wrong, but if you cap CEO pay the rockstar CEOs will stay home or pursue other interests and the remaining pool of potential CEOs will be a less talented, second string variety.

When Clinton tried to cap CEO pay they just payed them with stock options and got around it. I suspect if you cap even those they will simply no longer call them CEOs, they'll call them private consultants and have them act as CEOs. The system naturally wants to overpay CEOs so coming up with pay caps is an artificial mechanism that doesn't solve anything.

I don't honestly know how the leftover money would be spent; one assumes it would be used to cover for the losses associated with a substandard CEO. Most importantly though, a company is only obligated to pay an employee enough money and provide enough benefits to keep them from quitting and working somewhere else.

Drew

AA, this question isn't merely one of "caps", but also one of balance. If a CEO is hugely successful in the development of his business, to the tune of a few hundred percent over a few years time, far exceeding commonly used economic growth indicator findings, can you justify his pay increases and bonuses taking off for the stratosphere while his hourly workers barely keep up with inflation? We're not saying that he should be eating red beans and rice while his line employees go home in their Bentley's to filet Mignon and caviar- we ARE saying that some CEO's have gotten filthy rich off of their employees, consumers, and sometimes even through the shareholders, and have taken the attitude that they alone are entitled to reap those rewards. Micheal Eisner of Disney is one- as CEO, his company was having some of it's worst performance years, with Money magazine listing him as one of the 10 worst CEOs in the world, when he decided to give himself a pay RAISE. He also talked the board into lowering the standard by which all Disney employees are judged to get bonuses; a one-time adjustment meant specifically for Eisner. That bonus was more than what 94% of any of the Disney employees will ever make in a lifetime of earnings. Yes, Eisner did this with the help of the board- but it was Eisner's brainchild. And it's a total insult to the American middle class.

AuthenticAndrew

A lot of people make a lot more money than the people they work with such as high performance sales people, top athletes, and movie stars. It might seem unfair but remember that 1) not everyone can be a CEO or a movie star, it takes special ability and 2) they pay extremely high taxes compared to the middle class.

I don't know how to solve the problem of overpayed CEOs who make millions even if their company fails, but I do know that capping their pay and calling it a day is a joke of a solution that if not immediately circumvented would probably have unintended consequences.

Drew

You need to go back and read my comment- you may have missed the part where I said it's not about caps, but about a balance. I also said that the worker bees aren't looking for the same pay, which would be unsustainable form the beginning. I did say what everybody else has been saying lately: when CEO pay rises well beyond that of inflation (after he's already making several hundred times that of his hourly employees), but they tell the employees that they just can't afford benefits and a modest COLA, that is also unsustainable.
On a lighter note Andrew, did you hear that the NFL Commish just slammed the door on Limbaugh buying a team, saying that Rush's divisiveness would not be welcome anywhere in the NFL?

AuthenticAndrew

"they tell the employees that they just can't afford benefits"

An employer can tell their employees anything they want, or not tell them anything. If the employee doesn't like it the onus is on them to go work for someone else or start their own widget company.

This is why we need universal healthcare, because entrusting important matters to heads of business is a conflict of interest. Businesses are using our health and wellness as a bargaining chip at the negotiating table. We are afraid to quit our jobs, or rock the boat for fear of losing coverage. They can hang our health coverage over our heads and get away with treating us like dirt.

If they do enact universal coverage the chances are they will raise taxes on the rich harder than any other group and that will pinch not only overpaid CEOs but all excessively wealthy people.

Drew

AA, I agree with most of what you just said, especially the part about health care coverage in the U.S. But you left out another option for the disgruntled in America employee- they can organize, and they can strike.
At least in theory...
As for taxing the wealthy, I'm not holding my breath. A gradual return to the pre-1980 tax rate would go a long way to bolstering the economy. But the extremely wealthy in this country are also very politically active and powerful, and many don't want to help pay for things like roads and airports and the military, even though they use as much or more of those commons as the middle class does.

AuthenticAndrew

You're overly skeptical of the rich.

"•The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid 33.7 percent of all individual income taxes in 2002. This group of taxpayers has paid more than 30 percent of individual income taxes since 1995. Moreover, since 1990 this group’s tax share has grown faster than their income share."

"The latest data show that a big portion of the federal income tax burden is shoul­dered by a small group of the very richest Americans. The wealthiest 1 percent of the population earn 19 per­cent of the income but pay 37 percent of the income tax. The top 10 percent pay 68 percent of the tab. Meanwhile, the bottom 50 percent—those below the median income level—now earn 13 percent of the income but pay just 3 percent of the taxes. These are proportions of the income tax alone and don’t include payroll taxes for Social Security and Medicare."

In otherwords the rich getting flogged as it is. A few hide money in tax shelters but that has practical limits and it isn't all rich people that do that.

I'm not sure how I feel about unions. I think they're a big part of the reason that the US auto industry is falling behind. The labor force is a costly giant slow moving blob when it could be nimble and dynamic, costing only what it is required that it cost and little more. You must have heard horror stories of union workers looking at a box for hours becuse some union contract says some other type of employee who isn't available is required to move it.

Because health benefits are such an important reason for the existance of unions, a universal health plan might even do away with the need for many of them.

Drew

That's funny, since unions are fighting the hardest for universal health care (in the form of either single-payer, or at least a public option). We now have a President in office who values workers and individual Americans, and he replaced a party and a president who sucked up to the corporations and further helped kill union organization. Unions represent democracy in the workplace, and the folks who work to bar persons from organizing don't like democracies in any form.

sparky

Unions brought you the 8 hour day, 5 day a week work schedule that a great deal of the working public enjoys.

AuthenticAndrew

Nevertheless if we had universal health coverage the necessity of unions would be diminished.

AuthenticAndrew

You can't sum up unions as a an absolute force of positivity and light. Sometimes they're good, but sometimes they drive up labor costs and make America uncompetitive.

KS

I don't like conservative talkers... they're hurting America."

Not nearly as much as the liberal progressive news media with their moral low-life lies and their anti-conservative bigotry that are hurting America. This has become an all out war within. The news media affects many more people than the conservative talkers.

Why is the news media trying to cover up as much as they can for ACORN and other corruption tied to the White House and Congress, primarily from the left, which is killing the moral fabric of this country ?

Coiler

What is it that ACORN did that was so egregious compared to the GOP? Break into party headquarters disguised as plumbers?

joanie

CEO pay is a function of supply and demand,

Prove that. I don't agree.

the rockstar CEOs will stay home or pursue other interests and the remaining pool of potential CEOs will be a less talented, second string variety.

More generalizations. I'm disappointed again in you Andrew. And if the GM CEO was such a rockstar, why did they fail? This is not good debate on its face. You say nothing of substance. Nothing.


And again, my post never said whether they did or did not deserve it.

You may continue running in circles with your own generalizations and your long monologue, but it doesn't pass the reasonable test with me. Sorry.


And BTW, if you did play twenty questions, you'd probably achieve more clarity in your thinking and stay on point.


Rockstar CEOs - c'mon Andrew. These rockstar CEO's have put our economy in the dumpster. Give up. You are looking increasingly foolish.


And one more thing: there's a lot more money to go around in the global market of entertainment than in the local market of health care. You really need to broaden your thinking, Andrew.

joanie

ACORNACORNACORNACORNACORNACORNACORNACORN...

THE NEW MAFIA!!

THEY ARE OUT TO GET KLUELESS!

jumbalaya

Nevertheless if we had increased government regulations, the necessity of rockstar ceo's would be diminished.

Coiler

It's racial. Ever since the demise of the states-rights label, the right became 'conservatives' but what is it they are conserving?

AuthenticAndrew

joanie, you seem to be flying off the rails. You're acting out emotionally just because I don't agree with you.

joanie

Yes, I think I'm being hard on you. But your argument is emotional and not reasonable. And since you haven't responded to my point, agreement or disagreement with it isn't at issue.

KS

You can't refute anything I said. All you can do is spew nonsense. You will not be happy after the next election.- I doubt if you'll know what hit you.

The brazen hubris and corruption of the Lib Progs will take down the Democratic Party.

Crystal from the old KIRO chat

KS,I'd sure like to know just what "corruption" you are talking about?

Coiler

Maybe his frogskins have run out

Crystal from the old KIRO chat

LOl Wall Street has stolen all of the frogskins

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