Open thread: rest in peace

"After a long battle with obviousness, subtly has died." ~~ Rachel Maddow

Comments

[Queens Hunter]

Single payer healthcare.

You want the governement to take care of you the same way they take care of our veterans?

Why do so many Canadians come to the US for services? The English healthcare system is broken.

Be careful what you ask for, you may get it.

[ExPatBrit]

????

"Why do so many Canadians come to the US for services? The English healthcare system is broken."

Is it better in the French speaking parts of Canada like Quebec?

[Queens Hunter]

I have no idea why it would be better in the wannabe frog turf. Generally anything the frogs do is fubar.

I suggest that when the good ol US of A can take care of its Vets then consider the rest of the population.

That wont happen because the libs are hell bent on socializing everything they can as fast as possible. Since healthcare fails to provide services to approx 8-10% of the population wait until it is free for all.

[Puget Sound]

subtlety died because obviousness is sooo damn easy.
can't cross party lines. must be either a conservative or a liberal.

here is shades of gray. former president bush and clinton up in canada discussing issues of the day.

I was reminded of the Alfred Hitchkok movie Strangers on A Train watching these two

[Drew]

Yes, hordes of sick and dying Canadians are flooding across our borders, all because they can't wait to pay twice as much for "sick care".

[sparky]

I keep hearing this story about how the health care is crappy...all the Canadians and British people I know LOVE their health care, including a friend in BC whose father was hospitalized for over a year before he finally passed away. Total cost to the family= $O.
Yeah, I would really hate that.

Meanwhile, I have been waiting for over a month to get in to see a specialist, and they still dont know when they can give me an appointment.

[Queens Hunter]

Total cost=$0. LMAO.

It wasnt free. Someone paid for it.

You ignore my basic premise that the US cant take care of 10% of its pop. how can they do 100%?

[KS]

The current health care is broken, but Government run anything will NOT make it better. The owness should be on the insurance companies/HMO's to fix this system. Waiting to see a specialist for over a month...OK, is that a life or death issue ? Try the squeaky wheel approach - I have found that gets results.

That is not the rest of the story. People who are dying and are on a long waiting list for necessary surgery have to the US from Canada and do not have to go through the waiting lists YET. It will come though, if people like you keep their heads buried in the sand and await the emergence of a Nanny State.

[KS]

the above should read:

People who are dying and are on a long waiting list for necessary surgery have come to the US from Canada. We do not have to go through the waiting lists YET like they do with their Government-run Single Payer system.

[Drew]

That's assuming your insurance carrier will agree to letting your doctors do their jobs. We make an insurance company's profits come before basic health and survival in America. It's all about the priorities. And for 49 million Americans who cannot afford monthly premiums to for-profit companies (54 million by 2019), there are now websites that can show you how to treat serious injuries at home, like suturing multi-layer lacerations and setting simple fractures. If you're careful, you won't be permenantly disabled or die from sepsis.

[Cyn]

I will be on pain medications for another two years, I've been on them for 2 years already because I can't afford the $5000 out of pocket for an MRI and the spinal injections to relieve a back problem that gets worse each month. My quality of life is poor because of almost constant pain. My job and working abilities have suffered greatly, my sleep is terrible, I'm very uncomfortable sitting, standing, driving. I must wait for Medicare to kick in. I know there are people in worse, even life-threatening positions not covered by their insurance, so I try to shut up and pop the pill which don't relieve the pain very well and have lots of side effects. In another more accessible system like Canada or other countries, I would be living a different life right now. We are giving all the money not to the doctors or the poatients, but to insurance companies and large health care corporations. I don't want a handout, I need accessibility and reasonable prices for me, a self-employed person. It will probably be enacted too late to help me much, but Obama is promoting reform, not socialism.

[Drew]

Best wishes, Cyn. The rest of the industrialized world looks on in amazement that Americans are still debating this issue. Canada doesn't have a "perfect" system, and neither does Japan, Britain, or France. But the most technologically advanced country in the world ought to be able to assemble a plan that takes care of every citizen, so the only thing we have to worry about when we are sick is getting well again.

[KS]

" And for 49 million Americans who cannot afford monthly premiums to for-profit companies (54 million by 2019), there are now websites that can show you how to treat serious injuries at home, like suturing multi-layer lacerations and setting simple fractures,"

Of those 49 million, approximately 15 million of them are illegal aliens and there are also a large number which could afford but choose not to have. The web sites showing preventative measures are a good thing to cut down costs. If there's one area where the costs need to come down, it is the COBRA for those who are laid off. The politicians are as much to blame for not unilaterally promoting a better alternative as is private enterprise.

"Obama is promoting reform, not socialism."

He is painting reform with a broad brush, which looks, like walks like and smells like socialism - in spite of the White House, Lap dog media denying that because they know the public would not buy into it if they called it socialized medicine - a half truth. He wants a nanny state and you to be dependent on Government - that's Obamanation.

[geo]

I find it amazing that conservatives will not trust government, that is, "we the people" but will trust profit making insurance companies who depend on denial of service to it customers in order to make a profit. They have demonized government to such an extent that they have been able to profiteer our healthcare system to such an extent that it has become the most expensive in the world. You will not find the citizens of any of the other industrialized democracies that have universal health care, and that is everyone but us, exchange their system for ours.

[Drew]

Geo-
You hit it right on the head. And what works for the military will work for the healthcare industry (thank you Reagan and Nixon for putting all of this in play). We've deteriorated to the point that corporate profits are more important than the health and safety of the community.

And KS is wrong again: the number of 49 million was taken over a year ago, before many were laid off and lost their coverage. By some estimates, it is now closer to 52 million, but it is certainly increased in the last several months. Either way, that number does NOT include non-citizens, just honest Americans whom you are more than willing to throw under the bus. It should be noted that KS' "logic" comes from the same source that thinks that a website showing desperate people how to do surgical procedures at home is a good thing.

[ExPatBrit]

"He is painting reform with a broad brush, which looks, like walks like and smells like socialism - in spite of the White House, Lap dog media denying that because they know the public would not buy into it if they called it socialized medicine - a half truth. He wants a nanny state and you to be dependent on Government - that's Obamanation.

Posted by: KS | May 30, 2009 at 11:44 AM "

Obama is not promoting single payer, or socialized medicine at this point.

I actually wish you were right but sadly you are not. We are going to re-arrange the deck-chairs with a bunch of fake reforms and unenforceable agreements with providers, health insurance and drug companies.Costs wil drop a lttle with the recession but within a few years we will be back where we started.

Meanwhile expect more of the same. The health-care thievery is entrenched. Our willingness to believe it is "world class" is astounding.

A famous conservative once said "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities.

Not gonna happen in my lifetime.

[Cyn]

The private sector and their "free market solutions," have made left 20 million Americans unprotected. The costs of health care in this "market paradise" are the highest in the world. The government may not be as accountable as we'd wish, but the private sector is not accountable at all.

People want more government solutions, now. The Reaganomic experiment has failed, and all the Republicans can do is try to smear a proposed health plan as being "nanny state," or socialism. Wish they would offer some ideas instead of just sniping at Obama. They couldn't still believe this so-called health care system is working , could they?

[Puget Sound]

KS
Check out a thoughtful column by Mark Steyn.

not for the dull witted...

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=N2NmZDNmYmIyNzk2ZTExNzQ1M2FiMWQ0Y2JmNDI5MzI=

[Puget Sound]

I am open to a different system but I offer this challange:
For all of you who want a gov't run health system tell me how it will be better than what we currently give the bravest of our people, the VA System.
if that is the best we can give to our military retirees tell me how the single payer system will be better than that.

How 'bout this. Before we go to a single payer system lets see how Gov't Motors aka GM is run over the next 5 years. Uncle Sugar owns 72 percent and the Union owns about 20 percent.
Should be Nirvana, eh?

[Drew]

That the healthcare industry and it's money chose Rick Scott to represent them amazes me. His Columbia/HCA was indicted for defrauding the government through overbilling of millions of taxpayer dollars. Now he's back, getting lots of air time on Fixed News, as an expert on why the private healthcare/pharmaceutical industry always has your best interests at heart.

http://michaelfriedlander.wordpress.com/2009/05/19/rick-scott-and-hospital-corporation-of-america/

[sparky]

I just returned from a little retail therapy. I found an Oldie's station on the radio and I am appalled and distressed to be reminded how many songs in the 60's and 70's were about "makin' it, shakin' it, fakin' it, breakin' it,, takin' it."

[HoChiMinh]

Yeah, sort of reminds you of what our Gov't was doing about the VN War doesn't it.

[Drew]

Here's an interesting article from The Tennesseean about Rick Scott...

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20090511/BUSINESS01/905110319/Ex-Columbia/HCA+chief+Rick+Scott+campaigns+against+government-run+health+care

[Drew]

"The current health care is broken..." Posted by: KS | May 30, 2009 at 09:11 AM

...and Scott is one of the guys who helped break it. Now he represents the movement to leave it in place.

http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2009/03/05/scott-offers-himself/

[sparky]

Actually, it didn't make me think of Viet Nam at all. It reminded me of when I was a kid and had really bad taste in music.

[Drew]

Sparks, Ho may have brought up a good point- Vietnam may have better healthcare for its citizens than this country does. What are we, like 43rd now on infant mortality rates and overall lifespan? Whatever the number is, for the country that likes to brag to the rest of the world about how wonderful our "profits before patients" system is working, we sure can't prove it with any statistics that really matter.

[leopardgrrl1]

The VA and health care for veterans has actually improved a lot in the past ten-fifteen years. The main stress on that system right now is the incredible number of people who returned from Iraq and Afghanistan with severe and permanent injuries. The cost of their care has not been factored into the cost of the wars we are waging, thanks to the Bush administration. So whatever increased efficiency, improved personnel, better facilities, etc. exist now, they will be swallowed up by increasing numbers of VA patients. That is not a flaw in the care delivery system, it is a flaw in the allocation of resources, and a failure to plan for ward and their ultimate cost.

Secondly, the comparison is apples to kumquats. The government provides medical care to veterans, not health insurance. The president is proposing a system that would either provide means by which people could obtain private insurance, or a government option that would allow them to obtain that insurance from the government. Health care professionals would not be employed by the government, nor would there by VA-style medical operations. So even if your point about veterans' care failings was correct, it wouldn't be relevant to the discussion.

Most arguments about health care are anecdotal. My insurance is OK, so there's nothing wrong with the system. Canadians who can afford to come here, do so and pay out of pocket. Neither of these statements has anything to do with whether health care is actually available to people without insurance. I support a health care reform plan that covers more people, and makes coverage and health care more efficient. The bottom-line reason the health care system is broken is that care is too costly; prices rise significantly each and every year. Calling names like "socialist" fixes nothing. What's YOUR plan for making health care and health insurance more affordable without government involvement?

[chucks]

I gotta tell you Cyn, I have been through the back pain thing. It was years of pain before I finally did something about it.
Anyway, at that time an MRI was only about $3000.00 (only). About two months net pay. I got the hospital to drop it to $1500.00 with just a little quality whining. I got the Doctor to make some concessions as well.
Ask the Docs and everybody else to make concessions. They do it quite often.
Good luck to you, I hope you find a way to make it quit hurting. I had to sell my 73 Cougar convertible to make my pain go away.

[sparky]

oh chucks..I think that would just add to the pain!! cool car.

leopardgrrl....excellent! I have yet to hear why insurance companies would suddenly feel altruistic. I have yet to hear from the right another way to ensure everyone has affordable access to health care. People should not have to decide between getting meds or buying food.

[Puget Sound]

"Health care professionals would not be employed by the government, nor would there by VA-style medical operations. So even if your point about veterans' care failings was correct, it wouldn't be relevant to the discussion."

ah, but it would be a gov't run health care system. the gov't would set the prices and remove the competition. so call that what you want, i would call that a gov't run health care system.

it would be THE system that you would use. much like the VA system is THE system you use if you are VA eligible.

look past the form and to the substance of the argument. btw, i didn't use the word socialist or name call. AND i am open to improving access if that means a different system to what we have.

cyn, i would use chuck's model. beg and sell what you need to get the $5k if it will make such a difference.

[Queens Hunter]

"the Canadians and British people I know LOVE their health care, including a friend in BC whose father was hospitalized for over a year before he finally passed away. Total cost to the family= $O."

The most absurd statement I have read on this blog. No cost. Nope-no cost at all. Just free, free, she said.

Who pays for it Sparky? Someone did.

What is your friends tax rate?

The gold standard for the absurd by a progrssive.

Got to love it.

[Drew]

Queens Hunted-
So what is their tax rate then?

[Coiler]

By GDP, the US is now #1 in health care costs.
1970 2004

US 7% 15%

CANADA 7% 9.9%

GERMANY 6.2% 10.6%

UK 4.5% 8%

We have the biggest increase as well as the highest level. We’re #1!

[nevets]

128 Days Later: It Can Always Get Worse

[nevets]

President Obama on effects of Socialized Health Care for America

[Coiler]

Latest Gallup poll

PRINCETON, NJ -- So far in May, Barack Obama has averaged 65% job approval. Since World War II, only three of the previous eight presidents elected to their first terms -- Dwight Eisenhower, John Kennedy, and Ronald Reagan -- have had a higher average approval rating in May of their first year. Obama's average exceeds those of the three most recent presidents -- George H.W. Bush, Bill Clinton, and George W. Bush.

Our side is winning.

[chucks]

Open Thread!!! Wooohooo!!!!
Late term abortion Doc Tiller killed in church in Wichita, KS this morning.
The sacrifice of this scumbag is bound to save some lives.
Fifty to sixty year old white guy at 200 to 220 pounds on the run.
I am going to go stand before a police officer or two, just to prove I am here and not there.
Long live the babies whose executions have been stopped.

[Coiler]

Killed in a church. You go chucks...

[chucks]

I did no do it, I in no way would ever have done it. It is wrong that anybody did it.
I just find joy that a few baby's that would have been murdered this week will live.
I might have considered carving his eyes out, but murder is wrong.

[Coiler]

Nothing says pro-life like murder. This is about politics, not 'pro-life'. The conservatives own this and look for "operation rescue" and others to be shut down as a domestic terrorist group.

[sparky]

Nobody thinks abortions are a great idea, chucks. I sure wish this county would put as much blood, sweat and tears into making sure that abortions are never ever necessary as they are in demanding a woman's body is a political issue. Intelligent sex education and access to birth control for anyone who wants it would go a long way toward preventing unsafe or unwanted pregnancies. These people are not pro-life--they are pro-fetus, and scream loudly when asked to agree to funding programs that will help poor children. Don't tell me that the mothers just need to be more careful. There are plenty of famous and not-so-famous men who can't keep their dick out of trouble that makes the "Abstinence Only" argument a big joke.

How people can be against small government and reconcile that with thinking the government has a say in such personal issues is beyond my understanding. That includes pharmacies that sell Viagra and Cialis, yet refuse birth control pills to women.

[Allen]

The Taliban regularly executes people who it sees as not agreeing with their views. The American Taliban (aka "Moral Majority" and "Christian Right") are no different, and definitely no better.

[vetwife]

Wingnuts and Freepers will say absolutely hideous things about how great this is.

Republican Leaders will call them entertainers.

Rove and Limbaugh will blame it on liberals.

Democrats will cower in fear and say nothing.

Media will turn it into a he said/she said over murder.

Lather, Rinsse, Repeat...

What did I miss?

[vetwife]

Also, this demonstrates how overturning Roe vs. Wade would have a minimal impact on abortion. For the most part, states that would criminalize abortion have already made it damned near impossible to offer legal abortions, anyway. The right wing puts their own interests before any laws.

[Puget Sound]

as technology improves and we see in to the womb it becomes harder and harder to deny as the issue of viability becomes earlier than ever before.

i've never seen or heard of anyone viewing an ultrasound say, look at that fetus...it's always, look at the baby.

not being pro or anti choice here. just an observation.

[vetwife]

Late term abortions are done on mothers who will not survive the birth of the child, or the child has died in the womb, and leaving it there until the due date will cause harm to the mother. Nobody thinks either situation is "convenient."

[chucks]

So Allen, the "good" Doctor was killed sitting in the pews of a Lutheran Church in Wichita, KS. Did that make him part of "The American Taliban", the "Christian Right" or "Moral Majority"? That is another bigoted arguement. Sorry you have such a bigoted outlook on life. I am willing to wager that at least one set of your grandparents would be perplexed.
Sparky, "Nobody thinks abortion is a great idea" is pretty all inclusive. Not to realistic. Anyway, thorough sex eucation, inluding birth control pills, dental dams, abstainence, morning after etc is valid.
I do not accept abortion as valid birth control but accept that it is there and none of my business outside of my home.
First trimester, if you feel you must. Second trimester if mothers life is at risk (fear of stretch marks or loss of dating time is not life at risk), or child is not viable (brain stem, but no brain, etc.). Third trimester, three judge panel of federal circuit judges must authorize under any circumstance.

[sparky]

"authorize under any circumstance.."

So if the baby dies before birth in the third tri-mester, as happened to a teacher I work with, you think she has to risk her health while a bunch of judges take how many weeks or months to decide she can have it removed?

[Drew]

chucks/putz-
May the fetus you save be gay, hispanic, and grow up to be a liberal activist for everyone's civil rights.

[Allen]

No, a man walking into his church to worship is not equivalent to a terrorist. You are chosing to miss my point. People of all religions who use their faith as an excuse to kill people are the terrorists.

Just like legions of protestors throughout the history of this country, they have an absolute right to gather on public streets to make their political views known.

If they block the access of others who are trying to access a legal facility, they should, of course, be prepared to be arrested for that. Arrest and criminal charges for those who physically block access are completely appropriate and completely consistent with the First Amendment.

I would not agree that people who exercise their first amendment rights -- without physically interfering with access -- are necessarily involved with "interfering with access to the procedure," or are terrorists. Physical interference -- blocking entrances, for example -- can and must be stopped, and those who phyisically interfere must be arrested. Speaking one's views on a public street (in compliance with content-neutral time, place, and manner restrictions) has always been perfectly legal and protected under the First Amendment. There are lots of "pro-life" advocates who exercise their First Amendment rights without physicially restricting the access of others or killing those they disagree with. I am a big, big supporter of the First Amendment, and that includes the protection of the rights of those who say things I abhor. The wingnuts, like the guy they now have in custody as a suspect in this murder, are not interested in anyone's rights but their own.