take your answer off the air...

  • HorsesAss.Org: the straight poop on WA politics & the press
    progressive brilliance from the guy who pointed out Tim Eyman's nascent horse's-assedness
  • Talker's Magazine
    The quirky talk radio trade mag. Check the Talk Radio Research Project- it's not very scientific, but places on the top 15 talkers list (scroll down to Talk Radio Audiences By Size)) are as hotly contested as Emmys (and mean just about as much).
  • The Advocate
    No, not THAT Advocate... it's the Northwest Progressive Institute's Official Blog.
  • Media Matters
    Documentation of right-wing media in video, audio and text.
  • Orcinus
    home of David Neiwert, freelance investigative journalist and author who writes extensively about far-right hate groups
  • Hominid Views
    "People, politics, science, and whatnot" Darryl is a statistician who fights imperialism with empiricism, gives good links and wry commentary.
  • Jesus' General
    An 11 on the Manly Scale of Absolute Gender, a 12 on the Heavenly Scale of the 10 Commandments and a 6 on the earthly scale of the Immaculately Groomed.
  • Howie in Seattle
    Howie Martin is the Abe Linkin' of progressive Seattle.
  • Streaming Radio Guide
    Hellishly long (5795!) list of radio streaming, steaming on the Internets.
  • The Naked Loon
    News satire -- The Onion in the Seattle petunia patch.
  • Irrational Public Radio
    "informs, challenges, soothes and/or berates, and does so with a pleasing vocal cadence and unmatched enunciation. When you listen to IPR, integrity washes over you like lava, with the pleasing familiarity of a medium-roast coffee and a sensible muffin."
  • The Maddow Blog
    Here's the hyper-interactive La Raych of MSNBC. daily show-vids, freakishly geeky research, and classy graphics.
  • Northwest Broadcasters
    The AM, FM, TV and digital broadcasters of Northwest Washington, USA and Southwest British Columbia, Canada. From Kelso, WA to the northern tip of Vancouver Island, BC - call letters, formats, slogans, networks, technical data, and transmitter maps. Plus "recent" news.
  • News Corpse
    The Internet's chronicle of media decay.
  • The Moderate Voice
    The voice of reason in the age of Obama, and the politics of the far-middle.
  • News Hounds
    Dogged dogging of Fox News by a team who seems to watch every minute of the cable channel so you don't have to.
  • HistoryLink
    Fun to read and free encyclopedia of Washington State history. Founded by the late Walt Crowley, it's an indispensable tool and entertainment source for history wonks and surfers alike.

right-wing blogs we like

  • The Reagan Wing
    Hearin lies the real heart of Washington State Republicans. Doug Parris runs this red-meat social conservative group site which bars no holds when it comes to saying who they are and who they're not; what they believe and what they don't; who their friends are and where the rest of the Republicans can go. Well-written, and flaming.
  • Orbusmax
    inexhaustible Drudgery of NW conservative news
  • The Radio Equalizer
    prolific former Seattle KVI, KIRO talk host speaks authoritatively about radio.
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« Al Franken: can a talk radio host make it in politics? the answer is clearly, yes! | Main | Mike Webb murder suspect to be arraigned monday »

July 28, 2007

Comments

Duffman

So far I have not seen one single post (on this site) calling for the violent overthrow of our Guvmnt? cessation of ellipses,yes but no overthrow...what's Billy-Bob talking 'bout?

seattlejew

I absolutely agree with O'Reilly. iT is scandalous that a far right newspaper, owned by semitic immigrants, should portray itself as our national newspaper of record.

When did the NY Times last report the good news from Cuba? The crocdile tears they shed for Fidel's illness sicken me.
Or disclose the address of he covert vice prexy?

Worst of all, the Tomes provides precious little support in the battle against creationism. When did you last read ana rticle in the Times about WHO funds creationist research?

We need balance.

anomolos

And the week before that it was liberals degrading our troops and hating America.

sparky

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.--Ghandi

Bill is just pissed that the steel-vagina lesbians wouldn't give him the time of day. Or, to quote from the book Bill wrote " Hey baby, put down that pipe and come get MY pipe up..."

sparky

From this morning's Daily Kos:

In case you're keeping score, here's the Bill O'Reilly "Daily Kos is just like..." checklist.

* David Duke -- Check.

* Al Capone -- Check.

* Benito Mussolini -- Check.

* Nazis -- Check. Double check. Triple Check.

* KKK -- Check. Double check. Triple Check.

Nice list. And it's highly convenient that rather than having to rummage through the cesspool of BillO's officially unmonitored web site, he provides the hate speech straight from his own snarling lips.

However, the fact that O'Reilly has had to dip into the Nazi well three times, shows that his repertoire of nastiness is sadly limited. Having used up the KKK, World War II opponents, and dead Italians, Bill risks being a monotonous blowhard who just repeats the same mindless crap evening after evening without the slightest bit of thought or originality. And gee, who would watch that?

So, in order to help Bill out, could somebody please throw this man a simile? What can O'Reilly compare Daily Kos too next?
Poll

Daily Kos is just like...
Atilla the Hun

Caligula

A triple-decker sauerkraut and toadstool sandwich

Slow, Night of the Dead zombies

Fast, Dawn of the Dead remake zombies

Dakota Fanning's spooky stare

That woman on the DirectTV commercials

Snidely Whiplash

Ammonites (mollusks or biblical enemies, take your pick)

joanie

Interesting. The Supreme Court has made it easier to circumvent McCain-Feingold allowing corporate and union money in the name of free speech. But ordinary people writing ordinary opinions via what's become ordinary media (the blogosphere) are disgraceful and need to be attacked?

This kind of thinking is why I finally quit reading anomolos posts over on the "hizzoner" thread.

" Writing for the majority, Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. said that, when regulating what can be said in a campaign and when it may be said, "the First Amendment requires us to err on the side of protecting political speech rather than suppressing it."

(Souder, writing for the dissenters):
"After today," the dissenters said, "the ban on contributions by corporations and unions and the limitation on their corrosive spending when they enter the political arena are open to easy circumvention, and the possibilities for regulating corporate and union campaign money are unclear."

Also, that sounded like an awful lot of media types who are seeing a decline in their market share and who may be protecting turf just a bit? I wish obsolescence on them.

seattlejew

O'Really and the Supremes are really not related. They ruled that McCain Feingold infringed on free speech. O' Really is engaging in hisn free speech right to advocate censorship.

The real problem is that modern corporate structures are inj conflict with free speech and we have yet to find a solution that discriminates between individual speach and the speech of corporate entities.

It may be worth remembering that at the time he pushed for the bill of rights, Jefferson also was opposed to the formation of what we would today call corporations and, of course, neither political parties or unions had yet come into existence.

Persoanlly, it seems to me that coproations should NOT bve included under the free speech provisions of the Constitution. That said, I do not see how one can limti other forms of free speech.

One possible answer may be the web. The question is how far are we from the day when KOS can rival Bill for an audience?

joanie

I agree, Jew. My point was that a conservative SC seems to advocate for free speech for money (another name for corporations, unions, pacs, etc.) but conservatives themselves demean it for the average guy and girl via the blogosphere.

Isn't there something incongruous about that?

seattlejew

Joanie ..

I see these as unrelated issues. I think we would all be best off if the court was strictly constructivist and the Roberts' opinion seems ot me to be fair.

On the other side, I do not think the real issue is conservative OR liberal effort to repress the news as much as it is the failure of our media to discuss much of anything. As an example, you might look at a recent post at SJ SeattleJew
comparing the lack of information about Senator Murray with the lack of information about GW Bush. She, apparently wrongly, has been painted by the media as a dim wit while GWB was painted as a likable guy from Texas.
One reason SJ supports Obama is that he writes well. In contrast Hillary does not seem to be able to write. So, who is who? How does a poor Jew find out?

joanie

You suffer from objectivity, Jew.

Did you read the article? Do you think they were also correct in their decision regarding the teenage boy:


In another 5-to-4 ruling involving free speech, the court ruled today against an Alaska high school student, finding that educators can prohibit student expression that can be interpreted as advocating drug use.

This was not on school property. If we are "erring" on the side of free speech, don't you think a little consistency is in order?

sparky

SJ..check out the front page of the NYTimes this morning and read the article about letters HRC wrote while she was in college.

sparky

Joanie, from an adminstrator's point of view, that situation in Alaska was a no-win deal; do something and you are squashing free speech, ignore it and you are too permissive and then the parents and the school board and the community is mad at you. They were not on school property, but school had been only temporarily let out for this event and they all went together. When we take kids on a field trip,or to away games or performances we expect kids to behave and follow basic rules. However, those are school-sanctioned events, and become an extension of "being at school." Standing in downtown Juneau probably does not fall under that category, although school was let out only temporarily so the students could go watch the torch go by. So that is a hard one to call.
The principal asked the kid to put down the sign and the kid mouthed off to her--that is the discipline issue for me, not the sign itself. But in most secondary schools, discipline is meted out systematically and consequences get progressively bigger. We dont know if this kid was on "step 1" or "step 6" and that is an important piece of information that is missing. He might have been to the point where the next infraction meant a long suspension. (which is why I ask teachers to think about what they are doing when they write a kid up for chewing gum--its hard to to explain to a parent why a kid is being suspended for gum!)
All that said, I think there were better ways to handle this and the principal could have prevented things from getting blown out of proportion by just taking the sign away and giving the kid a warning about mouthing off.

joanie

Thanks, Sparky. You're right of course. He's under the supervision of the school . . . that's a no brainer and I forgot that part. His behavior merited a good classromm discussion afterwards as to the appropriateness of our actions when and where and upon whom they reflect.

I'll take my lumps on the one.

joanie

I'll take my lumps on thisone.

joanie

I've been thinking about this. and I think I do disagreee with the ruling by the Court. They used as their rationale the message and not the behavior. I think that is an infringement of free speech.

As a teacher, it is the behavior with which I disagree.

Field trips taken on school time should be learning opportunities. Behavior can be regulated and monitored. No signs were appropriate because the student was representing his school and not himself given the time and reason for being there. As a student still on school time, neutrality probably should have been discussed beforehand and expected.

By dragging "drugs" into the argument, they have muddied the waters of "free speech." If the school had lost that case, they would then be on notice that they have to rethink school policy about field trips, good use of school tiime, behavior rules and would have to be responsible for making sure students and families knew the rules and obeyed them.

The Supreme Court is not there to decide the appropriateness or correctness of the "message."

seattlejew

Joanie ..

My immediate reaction to the Juneau issue was that the Court was wrong.

The problem is, when does free speech become full? Would you feel differently if this were an evangelism message? a racist message?

I agree with the other poster that ideally this would have been dealt with more skillfully rather than getting to the SCUS.

It seems to me that the intent here was to speak in school. I think schools have an obligation that overrides the first amendment as it affects adults. The limits .. I am not sure.

joanie

The problem is, when does free speech become full? Would you feel differently if this were an evangelism message? a racist message?

First of all, it wasn't. You can't yell "fire" in a crowded room. There are limits. If this were hate speech, it might be a different argument. Where to draw the line? Drawing the line at a so-called drug message is much too low a threshold for me.

And, for the record, I take few personal insults from signs. If a sign intends to incite violence - which I think hate signs do - hopefully we have laws in place to deal with the individuals holding those signs.

I agree with the other poster that ideally this would have been dealt with more skillfully rather than getting to the SCUS.

I also agree with this. This is very easy to agree with.

But it did reach the Court. We are discussing the decision of the Justices here - I thought. As for the school handling it better, yes. I gave my ideas for how schools should handle these cases. I still think school time is for learning, looking at opposing viewpoints, discussion. A lot of schools treat field trips as separate from curriculum. The way students present themselves in public when representing their school is a valuable discussion. They should be there to observe and discuss the event later. That would be an activity that would promote critical thinking. Therein lies the skill a school can use to prevent this kind of challenge in the future. Simply setting the rules beforehand. Perhaps a "no signs" rule would have helped.

Handling it after the fact? Well, they made their bed. Sparky was right, probably could have been handled better. But it wasn't. And I'm very sorry it reached the SC because I think we have a poor decision.

It seems to me that the intent here was to speak in school.

Explain this. Are you reading the kid's mind? What was his message?

I think schools have an obligation that overrides the first amendment as it affects adults.

What is that obligation? To what extent can they override it? What age limits do you set? Who decides?

I know I've said this, but when a school participates in a community activity, their obligation is to make it a learning experience. Set rules, give kids the role of journalists, social scientists, become observers rather than participants.

I'm sorry, Jew. I don't really understand what you are saying here in these last two sentences. Who's intent? What was the message? Are you saying the teacher decides which signs are ok? Are teachers supposed to be endorsing or subduing political thought?


Precedent has held very wide latitudes for free speech . . . and it interests me that you agree with their decision that honors "money" which funds ads like the Willie Horton ads as free speech but take issue with a "drug" sign held by a kid.


I'm also sorry for the length of my post. It is very hard to say things simply. These are not simple issues. As Michael knows, the best writing is revision! And I don't have time to sit and revise over and over . . . sorry, folks! I'll continue to think about this and try to bring more clarity to my argument.

joanie

In rereading your post, Sparky, I'm curious: just who was responsible for supervising the kids? Did school officials have any responsibility for them or were they free on the street? Do you know?

sparky

No I dont.,there are lots of details left out of the story. Douglas High School sits right on the main and only road in and out of town, just a few blocks from town. I dont know where the kid was standing, but since it was high school, I dont think anyone was actually supervising. It was probably the last thing they were thinking of...and its a small school, too. I bet the principal, in hindsight, probably wishes she had dismissed school for the day and then it would NOT have been a school issue. But I doubt the school board would have gone along with that. It would depend on the time of day this happened, and that is another piece of the puzzle that is missing.

Like I said before, to me it was less about the sign and more that the kid acted like a shit when she asked him to put the sign down...he got mouthy, she got pissed and it all went downhill from there.

I think most of us have fewer free speech rights than we think we do...can anyone who is employed by someone other than themselves, really say ANYTHING they want?? If this had been an adult on break from work that had held up this sign, and gotten fired, would people feel differently? I dont know. I just know that as an educator, and you know this too, Joanie, we always have to be careful what we say in public because there is always someone nearby ready to complain. It is hardly a scenario of free speech.
I think kids need to learn that.

joanie

I agree again except that once it gets to the Supreme Court unintended consequences can happen. That is not the place to resolve behavior issues.

I think we agree on that. :)

joanie

Sparky, just wanted to add that I know that is exactly what you're saying. My point to Jew was the decision by the Court . . . which, for me, was a bad one.

sparky

You think the Court should have ruled in favor of the student?

I think the public needs to make up its mind. Either we structure the school environment to encourage respect and behaviors that will be expected of our students when they get jobs "in the real world" or we let kids say and do anything they want because if we dont, we are violating their rights. It is possible to do the former and maintain a fairly broad sense of the right to free speech--kids are allowed and even encouraged to question ideas they hear in the classroom, but they need to do it like they would with their boss at work, in a respectful and conscientious manner. I know kids are not always able to do that, and they make poor decisions. But that is why parents and schools have rules for their kids.

joanie

I guess I haven't explained myself very well. I think there's a difference between behavior and free speech (message). I think the school has an obligation to make rules beforehand and then deal with infractions afterwards. The whole situation could have been prevented with some clarity: who is in charge of a minor; is it a school field trip; what is the purpose of the trip; how can you turn the trip into a learning endeavor.

Then, if the school is the guardian during those hours, they'll have to monitor to see that students are behaving according to their rules.

If parents are in charge or it has been determined that the school is not in charge, then it should have had nothing to do with the school and the school should not have meted out the punishment.

Because kids use poor judgment, activities like this one need to be structured and supervised. Skilled educators should prevent episodes like this. If you say it is difficult for schools to actually discipline kids, I would agree. But, that's another problem. And setting the rules in advance certainly would have helped. And turned the experience into one that might engender some critical thinking instead of just free time. We are experts and we have some accountability here.

I think the decision by the Court has limited free speech in a very conservative manner. The Court did not concern itself with the student mouthing off or being a jerk. The Court decided the case on message - finding that educators can prohibit student expression that can be interpreted as advocating drug use. - even when they may not be in charge. Yeah, I think it erred.


I do agree completely that the school handled the episode badly. Perhaps this is a family that would have protested no matter what was done . . . in the name of "free speech." But, the school could have done a better job of dealing with it both at the prevention stage and after the behavior occurred. I totally agree with you on that.

joanie

One more thing, do I think the Court should have sided with the student?

I think the Court should have protected free speech. It was a stupid sign. Since when is it illegal to be stupid or carry stupid signs? A typical teenage prank sign. That's all it was.

Tommy008

Montrose was nearing the end of his Sunday night shift as a greeter at Smart and Final, which was also the end of his week. His first week on the job, all twenty hours of it, working a split shift, five days a week. Two hours in the morning, and two hours at night. Things had gone fairly well. He was moving into his final thirty minute stretch when he spotted the woman with the Fuck Bush! T-shirt coming through the automatic glass doors. She had been in the store Wednesday , his first day on the job. This time, however, instead of walking by and sneering at him , she stopped right in front of Montrose and his 6 foot cardboard likeness.......

Tommy008

The homely, short-haired woman wearing the Fuck Bush! T-shirt ws studying Montrose's face and glaring at him, standing maybe three feet away Finally she spoke. "I know who you are! you're that whiny little bitch that used to have an afternoon talkshow on KROW. You used to be all stuck up, and well, sure enough stuck on yourself and your dog Star and your girls. That's right. It was Star and the girls this, Star and the girls that! Always lecturing people about making poor choices in their lives and all, like your shit don't stink. haha. What happened, bitch? Poor choices? hahahahahaaha." Montrose was turning red, with fits clenching, but before he had a chance to do anything rash, the woman's partner, a 250 pound diesel Dyke in a biker's getup, waltzed through the doors, took her girlfriend by the elbow and whisked her away.....

sparky

another great episode, tommy!

But Dori would have to stand on a couple of boxes to be 6'.

Tommy008

Thanks Sparky. Speaking of Monson, I've heard him at least twice now mention that he ws offered much bigger money than KIRO had to give him , for doing a syndicated show for some mysterious , unnamed network (although they apparently told HIM what network they were). My B.S. dectector went off the first time he mentioned this, but upon his second mention of it, just weeks ago, he put in a detail that made me almost csrtain that he was making up the whole thing. This time he claimed the reason he didn't take the job was that it would mean moving to another city and he was too much of a hometown type to do it. He liked living in a city he knew backwards and forwards, like Seattle. Bullcrap! The days of network radio being done from NYC or LA are long gone. There would be no need for him to relocate to any other city, since hosts can broadcast from anywhere now. Savage broadcasts from San Francisco, Drudge used to do his show from Miami, Rush beams from Palm Beach, Medved's show is coming from Seattle, etc. In my opinion this Dori syndication offer is completely bogus. Put up or shut up, Monson, as I know you read Blatherwatch religiously just like Shiers.What was the name of the radio network, and what year and month was this offer made in?

Tommy008

"No, I've only received one small support payment from him. Enough to buy Star a case of dog food and some back-to-school clothes for the girls. Well, I'm not going to put him in jail, although believe me I've threatened the guy with it. The way this PR thing is going, I'll soon be making more than enough for all of us, even with these Santa Barbara rents and prices . All three of us, and Star I mean. Little Man D will have to fend for himself. So, no jail cell for the little man. hehe. Face it, Beverly, this part time job he has is about the best he is going to be able to do from now on. He's finished in radio. Finished. What? I didn't tell you about his new job? I'm sorry, I guess I told Connie about it, not you. Yeah, he's got a twenty hour a week gig as a greeter in the Kent Smart and Final store. So, I guess as long as he doesn't commandeer the store P.A. system microphone, and start lecturing people about making poor choices in life, he'll have a few ducats in his pocket.......hhaahahahahaaa.......what an asshole.........." THE END

KS

Sparky wrote:

" Daily Kos is just like...
Atilla the Hun

Caligula

A triple-decker sauerkraut and toadstool sandwich

Slow, Night of the Dead zombies

Fast, Dawn of the Dead remake zombies

Dakota Fanning's spooky stare

That woman on the DirectTV commercials

Snidely Whiplash

Ammonites (mollusks or biblical enemies, take your pick)"


One significant comparison was left out; The Daily Kos is similar to;

Al-Qaeda (similar but not just like it). With the exception of their homocidal tendencies toward the infidel, the hatred for the right by the Daily Kos and their ilk is similar to the hatred that Al-Qaeda displays toward infidels (i.e. esp. those in Israel & the US).

The hate displayed by the Daily Kos and the far left/progressive blogs toward the right is stronger than the disdain (does not rise to the level of hate) that the right-wing talk hosts Rush "the Oxycontin druggie" Limbaugh or Sean "the Wallbanger/Vanity" Hannity and the rightwing blogs display toward the left.

sparky

It went right over your head, didn't it.

KS

Nope, au contrair. You thought you were saying it in jest, but there was more truth than you wanted to realize and didn't know what you were getting yourself into.

Both sides are responsible for the polarization, but one side takes it too seriously for their own good.

sparky

Well, hey, thanks for explaining it to me and setting me on the path to truthiness.

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    • KIRO 710ESPN Seattle 710 KHz
      Games and sports-blabber
    • KIROFM 97.3
      Multi-format: news and nearly all local talk. This is where classic KIRO AM news talk radio went... hopefully, not to die. The home of Dave Ross & Luke Burbank, Dori Monson, Ron & Don, Frank Shiers, Bill Radke, Linda Thomas, Tony Miner and George Noory.
    • KUOW FM 94.9
      Seattle's foremost public radio news and talk.
    • KVI am 570 KHz
      Visit the burnt-out husk of one of the seminal right-wing talkers in all the land. Here's where once trilled the reactionary tones of Rush Limbaugh, John Carlson, Kirby Wilbur, Mike Siegel, Peter Weissbach, Floyd Brown, Dinky Donkey, and Bryan Suits. Now it's Top 40 hits from the '60's & '70's aimed at that diminishing crowd who still remembers them and can still hear.
    • KTTH am 770 KHz
      Right wing home of local, and a whole bunch of syndicated righties such as Glennn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Michael Medved, Sean Hannity, Laura Ingraham, Lars Larsony, and for an hour a day: live & local David Boze.
    • KPTK am 1090 KHz
      Syndicated liberal talk. Stephanie Miller, Thom Hartmann, Ed Schultz, Randi Rhodes, Norman Goldman fill in the large hole to the left on Northwest radio dial.
    • KLFE AM 1590 kHz
      Syndicated right-wing 2nd stringers like Mark Levin, Bill Bennett, Mike Gallagher, Dennis Prager, Dennis Miller and Hugh Hewitt inhabit this timid-voiced neighbor honker for your radio enjoyment (unless you're behind something large like Costco).
    • KOMOAM
      News, traffic, Ken Schram and John Carlson.
    • Washington State Radio Stations
      Comprehensive list of every danged AM & FM station on the dial.
    • KKOL am 1300 KHz
      Once a rabid right-wing talker, except for Lou Dobbs, it's all business....