take your answer off the air...

  • HorsesAss.Org: the straight poop on WA politics & the press
    progressive brilliance from the guy who pointed out Tim Eyman's nascent horse's-assedness
  • Talker's Magazine
    The quirky talk radio trade mag. Check the Talk Radio Research Project- it's not very scientific, but places on the top 15 talkers list (scroll down to Talk Radio Audiences By Size)) are as hotly contested as Emmys (and mean just about as much).
  • The Advocate
    No, not THAT Advocate... it's the Northwest Progressive Institute's Official Blog.
  • Media Matters
    Documentation of right-wing media in video, audio and text.
  • Orcinus
    home of David Neiwert, freelance investigative journalist and author who writes extensively about far-right hate groups
  • Hominid Views
    "People, politics, science, and whatnot" Darryl is a statistician who fights imperialism with empiricism, gives good links and wry commentary.
  • Jesus' General
    An 11 on the Manly Scale of Absolute Gender, a 12 on the Heavenly Scale of the 10 Commandments and a 6 on the earthly scale of the Immaculately Groomed.
  • Howie in Seattle
    Howie Martin is the Abe Linkin' of progressive Seattle.
  • Streaming Radio Guide
    Hellishly long (5795!) list of radio streaming, steaming on the Internets.
  • The Naked Loon
    News satire -- The Onion in the Seattle petunia patch.
  • Irrational Public Radio
    "informs, challenges, soothes and/or berates, and does so with a pleasing vocal cadence and unmatched enunciation. When you listen to IPR, integrity washes over you like lava, with the pleasing familiarity of a medium-roast coffee and a sensible muffin."
  • The Maddow Blog
    Here's the hyper-interactive La Raych of MSNBC. daily show-vids, freakishly geeky research, and classy graphics.
  • Northwest Broadcasters
    The AM, FM, TV and digital broadcasters of Northwest Washington, USA and Southwest British Columbia, Canada. From Kelso, WA to the northern tip of Vancouver Island, BC - call letters, formats, slogans, networks, technical data, and transmitter maps. Plus "recent" news.
  • News Corpse
    The Internet's chronicle of media decay.
  • The Moderate Voice
    The voice of reason in the age of Obama, and the politics of the far-middle.
  • News Hounds
    Dogged dogging of Fox News by a team who seems to watch every minute of the cable channel so you don't have to.
  • HistoryLink
    Fun to read and free encyclopedia of Washington State history. Founded by the late Walt Crowley, it's an indispensable tool and entertainment source for history wonks and surfers alike.

right-wing blogs we like

  • The Reagan Wing
    Hearin lies the real heart of Washington State Republicans. Doug Parris runs this red-meat social conservative group site which bars no holds when it comes to saying who they are and who they're not; what they believe and what they don't; who their friends are and where the rest of the Republicans can go. Well-written, and flaming.
  • Orbusmax
    inexhaustible Drudgery of NW conservative news
  • The Radio Equalizer
    prolific former Seattle KVI, KIRO talk host speaks authoritatively about radio.
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« JACK OLSEN SPEAKS: oprah, james frey, and fictional nonfiction | Main | OPEN THREAD: should democrats filibuster the Alito nomination? »

January 27, 2006

Comments

Brian

Leave it too KIRO ! to leave stock yard Vinne show ( stinks) and dump Miss Hart.I wish 770 am would go live 24 7 . you will be missed Erin!

Stephen Schwartz

KIRO RIP

Where does that place 1090? They now have no competition in Seattle. How well do they do on Arbitron? Could they be influenced to add local content?

KS

I like Dori Monson's message - face it, a vast majority of the rest of the US looks upon this area as a pocket of far left ideologues who want to emulate San Francisco - void of common sense. There are differing viewpoints with common sense and moderation that need to be heard from the Democrat party (e.g. US Rep. Adam Smith). Just as disturbing on the right are those who are also hypocritical.

Erin Hart emoted too much and often lacked common sense/like the rest of the leadership of the Democrat party. Although, she didn't get personal, which is in her favor - ZB had her pegged night after night when she was on.

Fluffycat

"Erin Hart emoted too much"

And Dori Monson DOESN'T? He's the only man I've ever heard that is more shrill that any woman I ever met.

Am0rcita

Wow! Someone actually bought into Dori's "I know better than you... I told you so... you heard it here first" daily sermons.

sparky

"a vast majority of the rest of the US looks upon this area as a pocket of far left ideologues who want to emulate San Francisco - void of common sense."

your source? (other than Dori, I mean..)

sparky

In fact, we seem to following a trend across the United States. According to the latest ABC/Washington Post poll:

Bush's bottom-line job rating -- 42 percent of Americans approve of his work, 56 percent disapprove -- is the worst for a president entering his sixth year in office since Watergate hammered Richard Nixon. And Bush's is not a single-issue problem: More than half disapprove of his work in eight out of nine areas tested in this ABC News/Washington Post poll, from Iraq to immigration to health care. Bush's problems clearly benefit the opposition: Americans — by a 16-point margin, 51 to 35 percent — now say the country should go in the direction in which the Democrats want to lead, rather than follow Bush. That's a 10-point drop for the president from a year ago, and the Democrats' first head-to-head majority of his presidency.

The Republican Party is feeling the pinch as well. The Democrats lead them by 14 points, 51 to 37 percent, in trust to handle the nation's main problems, the first Democratic majority on this question since 1992. And the Democrats hold a 16-point lead in 2006 congressional election preferences, 54 to 38 percent among registered voters, their best since 1984.

Independents — quintessential swing voters — prefer the Democrats' direction over Bush's by 51 to 27 percent, and favor the Democrat over the Republican in congressional races by 54 to 31 percent (the latter result is among independents who're registered to vote.).
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/
PollVault/story?id=1549959

ExDem

There will be poll in November, one that counts and results in people gettng elected into office. That's the poll that will be most interesting. When the Democrats end up on the short end of the stick again, they'll trot out some of their same old excuses.

Just to prepare us all, I'll provide a short list of the excuses we can expect to hear:

- People voted against their self-interests because the Republicans fooled them

- Karl Rove scared people into voting Republican by convincing them that terrorists would attack them

- Voters are dumber than all of the university professors, union bosses and media elites we should be listening to

- Diebold rigged the voting machines

- Republicans somehow made the ballots confusing and made it difficult for people to exercise their vote in Democratically controlled precincts in the big cities

- Republicans lied in their campaign ads and only smeared their opponents to win

- Republicans suppressed the minority vote by _______________ (insert nefarious action here, e.g., putting police near polling stations, asking people to show ID when they vote, etc.)

- etc., etc.

The excuses we never hear are:

- Maybe we're on the wrong side of too many issues

- Maybe the public doesn't trust us to __________________ (insert critical responsibility here, e.g., protect our country, run the economy, etc.)

- Maybe our friends, the university professors, the union bosses and mass media are out of touch with the regular folks out in the real world

Actually, I'm too harsh. I do remember Harold Ford (D - Tennessee) saying some honest, self-critical things about his party just before they selected Nancy Pelosi as the Minority Leader. So, I guess there are some Democrats that might not lean soley on the old excuse playbook. Of course, people like that don't seem to be in positions of leadership in that party.

Andrew

"Just to prepare us all, I'll provide a short list of the excuses we can expect to hear: - Maybe we're on the wrong side of too many issues"

Wrong because we didn't get votes? That's a logical fallacy called "Argumentum ad populum", which means you think something is right because allot of people also think so.

Once upon a time a majority thought slavery was OK. You are no more sophisticated then they were.

The truth is that modern day conservatives resemble what liberals were fifty years ago. The original conservative values are being discarded or watered down as people are becoming more educated and diverse.

KS

For almost every point that Dori states, Dave Ross gives the opposing view. Dori emotes because he is passionate and he more often than not can back it up with facts (so can everyone's favorite talker lol - Frank Shiers), something that Erin Hart often lacked. The problem is that while you may not agree with his so-called preaching/there is a deafening silence about your proposed alternative solutions.

My source for Seattle being a pocket of far-left ideologues that try to emulate San Francisco ? Just look that 2004 Presidential election results - 77% of Seattle voted for Kerry - That is one of the strongest showings he had in the entire US. I would consider Kerry as far-left. Those of you that don't - look at yourselves in the mirror or meditate about it for awhile. As for talk radio - give KOMO a shot from 10-noon or those who like comedy - 107.7FM - the end from 5-10am weekdays...

ExDem

Here's a stunning lesson - majorities make laws. Slavery was eliminated because a majority of states agreed to amend the Constitution. The Civil Rights Act passed because a majority of legislators voted for it.

Simple majorities don't make something moral. But, societal norms and policies are determined by majorities. And, if something is wrong, like slavery, societies change when enough hearts and minds are changed. If you want change, convince the rest of your fellow citizens to support your change. When they won't support the positions you support, then that might be a message to your party. Unless of course one is arrogant enough to think that their party is so much more enlightened the majority of the population.

The court system in our country protects the minority. It's a wonderful thing and it has served the USA well over the past few centuries.

Andrew

ExDem: We liberals will never confuse our values with societal norms.

Suppose you are against abortion and most people are for it. Does ExDem say to himself "Maybe I'm on the wrong side of this issue"?

Umm, NO

Our belief in and support of equality for all people, rich and poor, religious and non religious, won't waver with popular opinion.

If we lose ground we mourne for you not for ourselves.

Andrew

KS says "My source for Seattle being a pocket of far-left ideologues that try to emulate San Francisco ? Just look that 2004 Presidential election results - 77% of Seattle voted for Kerry - That is one of the strongest showings he had in the entire US"

To say that we're in someones pocket implies that we don't consider the alternatives - and that's a hurtfull thing to say about us.

Unfortunately, the fact that allot of us voted for Kerry doesn't prove that we didn't give strong consideration to Bush.

Plus, for all you know we hated Kerry but hated Bush even more.

Seattle is said to be the most literate city of all major cities in the US. Literate people vote Democratic? Who knew?

Fluffycat

Did anyone hear Frank Shiers take a nasty dig at Erin last night? I like Erin depsite my intense dislike of the way she ran her show, and I thought Frank Shiers showed a lot of class--all of it low--by his snide remark.

Don't be too smug, Frank; you and your smarmy little show could be next. And the next guy could kick you when you're down too. What goes around comes around.

ExDem

Andrew,

Thank you for mourning on behalf of the rest of us.

And as long as the Democrats stand against the traditional values that American have held and that made this country such a wonderful place, I hope you have plenty more opportunities to mourn for us.

Andrew

Slavery and denying woman the right to vote were traditional American values once upon a time. Thank God they are no longer American values.

I look forward to the further erosion of so called "traditional" American values.

Lump

Andrew sez, "ExDem: We liberals will never confuse our values with societal norms.

Suppose you are against abortion and most people are for it. Does ExDem say to himself "Maybe I'm on the wrong side of this issue"?

Umm, NO

Our belief in and support of equality for all people, rich and poor, religious and non religious, won't waver with popular opinion."

Well Andrew, you've done it again. Made me waste a perfectly good gin and tonic by having it run out my nose.

On abortion, that the libs are absolutely terrifed Rowe V Wade will be overturned, the public is slowly changing to pro life. 10 years ago it was 65-35 pro choice. Today it is 55-45 pro choice and who knows maybe in a few years it will be dead even. So what if the SCOUS voids it? That means that it goes back to the states to uphold or repeal. It will never go away here in the land of the looney left so all the ladies don't have to start displacing the homeless in the alleys looking for illegal operations.

Your statement about the belief and support for equality in rich and poor (you're always whining about the rich even though there are more Democratic millionaires than Republicans), religious and non religious (now that's a pure crock of BS) won't waver with public opinion. You keep putting out this stuff and lightning will strike you down.

Andrew

Fact A: the government represents the voters.

Fact B: the government is less efficient than private business.

Fact C: private business only represent whoever will give them money.

Conservatives want to do away with that inneficient organization that represents all voters in favor or business solutions which only represent whoever gives them money. If you are poor you can't afford to give that business money and therefor you aren't represented.

And that's where we're at with privatized Health Care. Roughly 45% of all 19-29 years old from low income backgrounds are without any health coverage. Say what they will about freedom and liberty, in Canada they wouldn't have to fear illness.

This is where we are at with legal representation. Rish people get away with murder. Literaly.

This is my religion: I don't believe poor people should die an early death or get poor legal representation on account of being poor. They work forty hours a week like everyone else and they provide important services necessary to our economy.

KS

"To say that we're in someones pocket implies that we don't consider the alternatives - and that's a hurtfull thing to say about us."

When in recent history has Seattle ever voted in favor of any Republican over a Democrat or any other party ? (Initiatives don't count) Can you name any ? Case closed !

"Unfortunately, the fact that allot of us voted for Kerry doesn't prove that we didn't give strong consideration to Bush. Plus, for all you know we hated Kerry but hated Bush even more."

The facts speak for themselves - some people did give Bush strong consideration - 12% of Seattle's voters who voted for Bush to be exact. I won't deny that it was a case of voting for the lesser of two evils in that election.

"Seattle is said to be the most literate city of all major cities in the US. Literate people vote Democratic? Who knew?"

Being the most literate does not equate with collectively having common sense - I know that most major cities vote Democrat over Republican, but would attribute that to different reasons, such as more of an affinity for Government programs, mainstream media favoritism and general laziness and complacency by the voting public to rely on reporting of the mainstream media to believe news heavily laden with urban legends. Unfortunately, the R's have taken a page out the D's playbook by escalation of Government spending - with that said - it looks like voting for the lesser of two evils again - until further notice.

Andrew

Simply because Seattle rarely if ever votes Republican doesn't say anything about how much thought we do or don't give to the other side.

I will take the bold leap in assuming that literacy is indicative of education. It's silly of you to imply that educated people are LESS likely to be objective than less eduated people - everywhere else.

"I know that most major cities vote Democrat over Republican, but would attribute that to different reasons, such as more of an affinity for Government programs, mainstream media favoritism and general laziness and complacency by the voting public to rely on reporting of the mainstream media to believe news heavily laden with urban legends"

So you're saying that if you live in a big city you are more likey to:

  • believe mainstream media (because we all know the internet and cable tv are exclusive to big cities)
  • have an affinity for Government programs (we can't get enough of our farming subsidies!)
  • general laziness and complacency
  • I can't take you seriously, I'm sorry.

    umo

    In what way did Frank Shiers kick Erin Hart when she was down?

    KS

    I guess that I can't take you serious either, since you try to take what I write out of context and not the way it was intended. Big cities have an affinity for big government. Democrats are all about big government. That is why Seattle rarely if ever votes for Democrats - its an ideology - which is not open-minded...

    Educated people less objective than non-educated people - I never said that !! What I said is that common sense does not necessarily reflect education, and by the looks of local Government - true story !

    By the same token, I don't believe that Frank Shiers kicked Erin Hart when she was down, since I only heard one person's account and not the full context, most likely by someone who doesn't like Shiers and wants to see him outed.

    christopher lowell

    who on earth would dare want to out frank shiers, honey?

    Tommy008

    Erin says others will go too, because of "costcutting" at Kiro, but I see just the opposite. Ruder and Shiers are still there and I believe Shiers has gained an hour. Sounds like typical rationalization by Ms. Hart, this time of her failure to go anywhere at the station after a seeming eternity in radio time . As another poster mentions, she had a superior attitude and couldn't hang with people who disagreed without attempting to belittle or sneer. Good riddance. What a butthead.

    Andrew

    Erin was probably told by the person firing her that it was due to cost cutting and others would also be let go. It helps soften the blow. It's a common tactic. It might even be true for all we know. Frank Shiers might cost less to feed.

    Tommy008

    Shiers is an ass, Ron and Don sound like dummies ( but really aren't , unless they're talking about illegal immigration) but I have to say there is something human there that makes them tolerable, even enjoyable on KIRO. In my mind KIRO has made a good start in getting rid of the Big Three offenders - the Axis of Arrogance: Webb, Hart, and Lou Pate. Now they need to get rid of that abominable braggart, bully and racist dunce who never lets you forget which city he's from and how superior it is to ours- Lou Pate. Christ, I used to think Webb had compromising pics of Entercom executives, now I'm thinking Pate must have some. He attracts the dumbest callers in the country, in a very smart city, so that's saying something. Even Shiers would be better than that pompous, contemptuos, insufferable boor.

    ExDem

    Andrew,

    You sound just like the college students that feel idealistic and start discounting the greatness of our American heritage. Our traditional values have led to the changes in our society. We did free the slaves and we gave women the vote. Our values for coming to consensus on critical issues is what is great.

    Imagine if we didn't have a strong tradition of being guided by consensus. There are people that think children should have equal rights and responsibilities as their parents. There are people that think it's good to be addicted to mind altering drugs. There are people that think it is good to disregard committed relationships and pursue your own happiness, even if it hurts others. Thank goodness our society hasn't come to consensus on these types of erosions of traditional values. There is a wisdom to how our society works so that some changes do take time to come to fruition. It serves to weed out the undesired changes that don't deserve to come about.

    In the end, it is a traditional value to work together cooperatively when we all agree that change is needed. It is not a traditional value for a minority element in the society to spit upon the conventions and traditions of the prevailing society and expect that everyone should support their change. Lastng changes result when we reach consensus, then codify those changes into our laws and our practices.

    Critter

    Tommy...

    I thought it was already decided that Lou Pate is leaving. I heard it was his decision, though, not KIRO's. I also heard it on his program last week, but I don't remember if he said it or his producer. I just know I've been celebrating ever since. He had nothing decent to say about Seattle or the people who live here. I don't know how he lasted so long in this city. New York can have him! Bryan Styble is filling in for him right now; not much of an improvement, I fear.

    joanie

    KS says,
    "I know that most major cities vote Democrat over Republican, but would attribute that to different reasons, such as more of an affinity for Government programs, mainstream media favoritism and general laziness and complacency by the voting public to rely on reporting of the mainstream media to believe news heavily laden with urban legends."

    It is hard to take seriously the opinions of someone who makes such huge assumptions. Sorry. I take it that it's not at all possible big cities vote democratic because they tend to be more educated, literate, and diverse. Just couldn't possibly be . . . ?

    KS says,
    "Being the most literate does not equate with collectively having common sense . . . "

    And you are now the arbiter of what constitutes common sense??


    KS says,
    " Big cities have an affinity for big government. Democrats are all about big government. That is why Seattle rarely if ever votes for Democrats - its an ideology - which is not open-minded..."

    Did you just say that is why Seattle "rarely if ever votes for Democrats?" Or did I read that wrong . . .

    Could one possible say that the reason eastern Washington usually votes Republican - its an ieology - which is not open-minded?"


    I'm having trouble with your logic, KS.

    joanie

    LET'S CLEAN THAT LAST PART UP A BIT!

    KS says,
    " Big cities have an affinity for big government. Democrats are all about big government. That is why Seattle rarely if ever votes for Democrats - its an ideology - which is not open-minded..."


    Did you just say that is why Seattle "rarely if ever votes for Democrats?" Or did I read that wrong . . .

    Could one possible say that the reason eastern Washington usually votes Republican is that its an ideology and they are not open-minded?" I mean, isn't that what you just said about Seattle? Or did I miss something?


    I'm having trouble following your logic, KS.

    Tommy008

    Critter, I don't want to depress you when it's already deprssing weather, but I don't think Pate is leaving yet. I heard on KIRO that Pate had a lot of vaction time bult up that he had to use or lose, so he'll be gone until next Sunday night. Maybe I missed something. I hope I did. At leat Styble loves Seattle, and considers it one of the great cities of the world.

    sclub

    Shiers and Styble are both big time backstabbers even on the air. Neither belongs on talk radio.

    Andrew

    ExDem, I apreciate where you are coming from in some regards. We want to accomplish some of the same things but through different means, and I disagree with your means.

    Take for example "There are people that think it is good to disregard committed relationships and pursue your own happiness, even if it hurts others"

    I take this to mean you want to make divorce difficult or impossible. That's an easy solution to the problem of broken homes but it doesn't address why the parents want to split up, thusly it fails to account for the consequences of not letting them do so.

    Maybe Dad will cheat on Mom, Mom will yell and Dad, Dad will beat Mom, Son will try to stop the fight, Dad will push Son into something and give him a bloody nose, Mom will start screaming and crying, Dad will disapear and turn up three days later aloof and looking for food.

    That's the staus quo of traditional values, and it's what you advocate. Real solutions are "hard work" as GW might say.

    Toomy 008

    All I heard Shiers say about Erin Hart behind her back was to a woman Saturday night who was talking over him, and it went like this-"Don't pull an Erin Hart on me- don't run on me now." Big deal. When Shiers and Hart had their debate after the last Battle of the Talkhosts, Hart called him a "white boy" and constantly interrupted him, talked over him, or took off away from him with some hysterical filibuster. I remember thinking right then that this would be the end of her, her performance was so obnoxious and rude. She acted like she was offended that anyone dared to question her "superior" beliefs and enraged that Shiers wouldn't bow down to her. If Shiers wants to take a little shot at Hart who cares? she deserves it.

    audioslave

    Andrew's quotes:

    "I look forward to the further erosion of so called "traditional" American values."

    And from another thread:

    "I can't blame most conservatives for thinking the way they do because a white Christian family unit is all they've ever known, but thanks to the internet's ability to inform people I expect modern day conservativism to be gone within 30 years or hopefully less."

    Just out of curiousity, what is it about promoting the continued existence of the American family, and the basic values that go with it, that you disagree with? It seems to be a common theme for your advocating the demise of mainstream conservatism, and for that matter, centrist Democrats.

    What is your definition of traditional American, or family values? Is it widely accepeted and validated? What other message(s) should parents be teaching their kids?

    Fluffycat

    This reminds me of the demise of KING 1090, except that KING crashed and burned--at least it went quickly.

    Witnessing KIRO's long, drawn-out decline is excruciating. I wish they'd stop circling the drain and get it over with.

    joanie

    Me, too, Fluffycat!

    Good try, Andrew. No matter how much sense you make, these two faith-based thinkers can't see the reality of the world. So, there is no reasonable way to debate them.

    The reality of peoples' differences and the need for tolerance for those differences totally escapes them. They will not answer with any substance your points. Afterall, how can anyone argue with an "Ozzie and Harriet" view of the world for anyone? You've lost before you start.

    Interesting, isn't it, Andrew. that the red states have the highest divorce rates and that Massachusetts, a very blue state, has the lowest.

    Oh well. Leave them to the little white houses on Primrose Lane with the little white church on the corner that solves all problems by making sandwiches on Sunday and you and I will continue to do the hard stuff of facing reality and trying to include all people, faiths, problems, and needs in our reality-based universe.

    I sure appreciate your try! :)

    Critter

    Tommy...

    Depressing weather is right! Ugh!!

    Anyway, yes, I know Lou's on vacation right now. He's been taking 2, 3 and 4 day vacations for the last several weeks; which I thought was suspicious. But what I was talking about was his leaving for good. I wish I could remember if he said it or his producer, but I just can't remember. But one of them definitely said it and I thought it was to be soon. Time will tell.

    Yes, Styble does like Seattle but, oh my, who can keep up with what he's saying? He talks way too fast for me and he makes me nervous. What a vocabulary he has, though. I'll give him that. :)

    audioslave

    Joanie, I am going to assume that I am one of "them" you are referring to here:

    "Good try, Andrew. No matter how much sense you make, these two faith-based thinkers can't see the reality of the world. So, there is no reasonable way to debate them."

    "The reality of peoples' differences and the need for tolerance for those differences totally escapes them."

    I believe the points I try to make are no different than yours...opinions that try to inspire a debate. I try to make a point based on your opinions (and others) and statements. To arbitrarily say that someone has no tolerance for differences in people, their opinions, and that they are just a "faith-based thinker" that can't see the reality of the world would indicate that you must know them on a personal basis, have interacted with them and thus passed this judgement upon them. I don't believe we have ever met Joanie.

    ExDem

    Andrew,

    I've read enough of your posts to appreciate and understand where you are coming from. I agree that we have the same end goals in mind with differing opinions on how to achieve them. The two of us are just a microcosm of the broader society in America - that's why there are 2 major parties that sustain over time. That's why I prefer to understand/clarify the broader goals first, then work down toward the specifics. There is room for differences of opinions on the "how to get there".

    I prefer the traditional values and traditional approaches because I think they have served our country well. I believe our country just keeps getting better over the 230 years since we declared our independence. Changes in some areas sadden/trouble me, and other changes are welcome - on balance, it continues to be a net gain throughout our history.

    I'm not a fan of the bomb throwing style of political discourse. It generally doesn't serve a constructive purpose for a person/party to engage in that approach. However, if people are truly committed to working together on issues, then they can resolve their differences in a way that generates lasting change.

    joanie

    That is pure horsepuckey, Audioslave. Your ideas and lack of substance has been perfectly clear.

    Andrew

    joanie said "The reality of peoples' differences and the need for tolerance for those differences totally escapes them. They will not answer with any substance your points. Afterall, how can anyone argue with an "Ozzie and Harriet" view of the world for anyone? You've lost before you start."

    Wow! That's so factual!


    audioslave said "Just out of curiousity, what is it about promoting the continued existence of the American family, and the basic values that go with it, that you disagree with? It seems to be a common theme for your advocating the demise of mainstream conservatism, and for that matter, centrist Democrats."

    There you go again. Don't fall off your chair, but Liberals have families to. Stop insisting that attacking conservative values is one and the same with attacking family values. Or maybe I'll just have to insist that all priests touch boys.

    "What is your definition of traditional American, or family values?"

    Traditional values are simply old values. If you claim to defend traditional values because they are traditional then what you are realy doing is defending old for the sake of old.

    Take straight marriage for example, they say it has always been between a man and a woman therefore it should continue be between a man and a woman.

    audioslave

    I believe that I have made points on this blog that have substance. I believe that your points have substance, Joanie, Andrew. I acknowledge them, recognize them, and believe it or not have tolerance for them. I am not out to defeat your way(s) of trying to solve the problems we face in this country. I don't believe I have ever made a statement here that basicially say's my suggestion or solution is the only way. You (Andrew) said you looked forward to the further erosion of traditional American values. I asked why?

    KS

    My bad, Joanie - What I really meant to say is "That is why Seattle rarely if ever votes for Republicans - its an ideology - which is not open-minded..."

    Now that changes your logic to; "Could one possible say that the reason Seattle usually votes Democrat is that its an ideology and they are not open-minded?" I mean, isn't that what you just said about Seattle? Yes, that is what I meant to say about Seattle, and that would go some for Eastern Washington - in the other direction.

    I submit to you that both parties are wrong about a number of important issues, such as bloated spending, but the Dems are wrong about more significant issues - such as their attitude on War on Terrorism in my mind. With that said, I agree more with the Republicans attitude, although they are doing a poor job in prosecuting the war in Iraq.

    Andrew

    Here's why: if traditional American values are nothing more than defending paradigms of old just because they are old, such as aposing gay marriage, or forcing citizens to act Christianly then I no longer want "tradtional American values" in the conversation.

    How about values based on what we know is right today? Our great great grandfathers are dead. They won't know if we're breaking their rules.

    Don't take modern advances for granted. When I have kids and I have to buy parenting books I will go for the one with modern research and mordernized techniques that take into account recent scientific studies with actual children.

    I will not buy the book that says I should beat my kids with a switch by Dr. Dobson.

    Andrew

    ExDem, you attribute conservative values with progress in America but in truth most of the progress has been achieved by progressives.

    Civil rights is a liberal initiative. Conservatives of that day were aposed to it.

    The New Deal was also a liberal initiative. It pulled us out of the depression and is responsible for allot of the large concrete structures that still stand to this day.

    Workers right. medicare. social security. liberal.

    audioslave

    "Civil rights is a liberal initiative. Conservatives of that day were aposed to it."

    You might want to double check that Andrew, specifically the voting record in congress.

    Andrew

    Um, I'll concede civil rights because I can't confirm or deny that right now.

    Lump

    Andrew sez, "Um, I'll concede civil rights because I can't confirm or deny that right now."

    Andrew, it's just like a lot of "facts" you throw out there come from ideology and not fact. The civil rights amendment was OPPOSED by a large number of Democrats and PASSED with the support of Republicans.

    Andrew

    The civil rights amendment was OPPOSED by a large number of Democrats and PASSED with the support of Republicans

    So I have to provide proof but you don't?

    The comments to this entry are closed.

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