beware the evil crèche-crushers,the menorah mongers and the weak of heart

Now that the election is over, conservative talk show hosts will be grasping for subject matter that's  within the narrow confines of what they have left to talk about now that the Bush is running, creeping and hiding-- that takes so much off the table!

(Most defenses of the indefensibles of the sad but deadly administration fall on the deaf ears of a public fed up with the crappy little war based on lies and carried out with ineptitude, while shedding lives, human rights, and the Geneva Conventions; they're tired of the chronic blameblitzes on the Democrats who are not in power and haven't been in 7 years; they're disgusted by the broadening stain of the pernicious scandals reaching  daily into the highest levels  of government; they finally question the drunken sailor budgeting, and the senseless if not neverexistent foreign policy; they've heard all they want about the domestic programs which were DOA; and above all: they no longer believe the stumble-bumbling of a president who cannot or will not defend himself and his policies in a way that's articulate, passionate, or meaningful.)

All the explanations are so well worn we won't be hearing them much defense except from the most craven spinning monkeys in right-wing media like Sean Hannity, Michael Medved and Rush Limbaugh.

The right needs a distraction. And you can make book on that they'll fall back on a well-worn one--  'tis the season.

Brace yourself for a month and half of the annual Yuletide bemoaning of the evil crèche-crushers who insist on honoring our sacred separation of church and state. Right-wing cultural cluckers like Sean Hannity, John Carlson, Michael Medved, Dori Monson or Bill O'Reilly will be filling their "churns," (opening monologues which are supposed to prime the pump for the ensuing debate) with horror stories of ACLU lawyers having jack-booted thugs ripping mangers off courthouse lawns; Satanists demanding for equal time with the Baby Jesus in elementary school Xmas Christmas pageants.

We hear sad tales of little Christian kids with tender faith shattered by a crossing guard forced to say, "Happy Holidays," instead of "Merry Christmas." Humorless atheists will taunt the faithful listening over the air-waves insisting that god be stripped out of Christmas carols and Christmas trees be called "gifting bushes."

Oh, the horror of pagans forcing public servants to include their cannibalistic Kwanzaan rituals in the holiday parade, and pushing the Christ out of Christmas while worshipping Rudolph the otherly nosed raindeer or other false idols. Church/State separation is not in the Constitution, they love to say.

There will be shocking stories of vandalized menorahs and crushed crèches. Everyone knows what a persecuted minority Christians are in this country-- but for a few conservatives and evangelical preachers who do what they can do, poor believers would be drowned in a tsunami of secularism, paganism, humanism, false gods, hedonism, New Age-ism, free love and all those Moslems coming over the Mexican Border to cut off your heads.

It's laughable seeing these holiday displays in malls and town squares with their menorahs, their Christmas trees, their Channukah Bushes, their Kwanzaa kinara and muhindis, their Buddhas. If you try to make everybody happy-- as Lisa Simpson can tell you-- you make nobody happy.

Those Hare Krishnas start whining, and the Zens come running; the Zoroasterians want a piece of the action; and the Scientologists and the Klan and the Oddfellows and the Campfire Girls...

(Remember last year when Carlson and Medved got the goods on County Executive Ron Sims for suggesting that County employees not use the C-word in their holiday greetings? The Irons campaign tried to pin the same secular humanist label on Sims for that act during the election, but it didn't stick since Sims is Washed In The Blood, an ordained Christian minister and knows how to talk Jesus better than Irons ever did, that creepy little apostate.)

Born-again Christians always say they're persecuted, and just want a fair shake and don't really want church and state joined, but if you as a non-Christian have ever been around them someplace where they've reached critical mass, they turn into little theocrats and you can't shut them up and they will trample you to death.

First blood in the annual Xmas teapot typhoon was drawn last week when a Wal-Mart temp lost her job after she responded to a woman complaining that the company was replacing "Merry Christmas" with "Happy Holidays." The customer service worker, identified only as Kirby's fatal heresy was describing Christmas as a "combination of world traditions."

"The colors associated with Christmas red and white are actually a representation of the aminita mascera (sic) mushroom. Santa is also borrowed from the Caucuses, mistletoe from the Celts, yule log from the Goths, the time from the Visigoth and the tree from the worship of Baal. It is a wide wide world," said her e-mail.

Poor ecumenical Kirby was sacked, but that wasn't good enough for apoplectic Catholic League pecksniff, Bill Donohue, who demanded WalMart (those godless secular liberals of note) make a) an apology for insulting Christians by effectively banning Christmas and b) a withdrawal of its insane statement regarding the origins of Christmas and c) a revision on its website."

Knowing talk radio, another reason this topic comes up like a greasy buñuelo every year is because it churns up callers-- so we're probably stuck with it ad nauseum again this year.

While a few of these outrages may be caused by pissed off atheists or ruffled agnostics playing out their anti-religious resentments, many of these incidences of watering down or removing secular displays are caused by trembling bureaucrats or timid businessmen or tremulous school administrators who just want to take the issue off the table.

That's because people who feel strongly enough (and a lot of atheists care about this shit way too much, too) to send faxes or call or write letters or shriek in some public way about such trivialities can be really, really nutty and the shrieking wheel, as the saying goes, gets the worm.

Then they get trouble from people like Donohue or Michael Medved or Jerry Falwell-- they just can't win. They don't usually know what the law is, so they over or under react. Here's some rules published by the Christian Rutherford insitute that spells out what you can and cannot legally do in this great land with our blessed  separation of church and state.

The Twelve Rules of Christmas (Compiled by attorneys for The Rutherford Institute)

    1. Public school students’ written or spoken personal expressions concerning the religious significance of Christmas (e.g., T-shirts with the slogan, “Jesus Is the Reason for the Season”) may not be censored by school officials absent evidence that the speech would cause a substantial disruption.
    2. So long as teachers are generally permitted to wear clothing or jewelry or have personal items expressing their views about the holidays, Christian teachers may not be prohibited from similarly expressing their views by wearing Christmas-related clothing or jewelry or carrying Christmas-related personal items.
    3. Public schools may teach students about the Christmas holiday, including its religious significance, so long as it is taught objectively for secular purposes such as its historical or cultural importance, and not for the purpose of promoting Christianity.
    4. Public school teachers may send Christmas cards to the families of their students so long as they do so on their own time, outside of school hours.
    5. Public schools may include Christmas music, including those with religious themes, in their choral programs if the songs are included for a secular purpose such as their musical quality or cultural value or if the songs are part of an overall performance including other holiday songs relating to Chanukah, Kwanzaa, or other similar holidays.
    6. Public schools may not require students to sing Christmas songs whose messages conflict with the students’ own religious or nonreligious beliefs.
    7. Public school students may not be prohibited from distributing literature to fellow students concerning the Christmas holiday or invitations to church Christmas events on the same terms that they would be allowed to distribute other literature that is not related to schoolwork.
    8. Private citizens or groups may display crèches or other Christmas symbols in public parks subject to the same reasonable time, place, and manner restrictions that would apply to other similar displays.
    9. Government entities may erect and maintain celebrations of the Christmas holiday, such as Christmas trees and Christmas light displays, and may include crèches in their displays at least so long as the purpose for including the crèche is not to promote its religious content and it is placed in context with other symbols of the Holiday season as part of an effort to celebrate the public Christmas holiday through its traditional symbols.
    10. Neither public nor private employers may prevent employees from decorating their offices for Christmas, playing Christmas music, or wearing clothing related to Christmas merely because of their religious content so long as these activities are not used to harass or intimidate others.
    11. Public or private employees whose sincerely held religious beliefs require that they not work on Christmas must be reasonably accommodated by their employers unless granting the accommodation would impose an undue hardship on the employer.
    12. Government recognition of Christmas as a public holiday and granting government employees a paid holiday for Christmas does not violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

Comments

[Trip]

This is also one of those perennial issues where the Christian conservatives walk hand-in-hand with Big Business conservatives, a veritable 2-for-1, low hanging fruit, easy win for the propagandists on the air.

Christmas ain't going away - there's too much money to be had while stroking the wackos.

It's probably high time for another flag-burning amendment and some sort of "Americans Against Puppy Kicking" legislation, which of course, you can count on Joe Lieberman to co-sponsor (See?! It's bi-partisan!)

[Lump]

Trip sez,"This is also one of those perennial issues where the Christian conservatives walk hand-in-hand with Big Business conservatives, a veritable 2-for-1, low hanging fruit, easy win for the propagandists on the
air."
And lets not forget about a great majority of the people in this country who subscribe to Christmas.

Oh Michael, tell me about the Geneva Conventions.

[Scrilla]

My GOD Mikey!!
You've connected the dots between Nativity Scene controversies and DECEMBER!!
I've always wondered why Carlson, Wilbur, Medved, et al., IGNORED this burning issue in JULY!!
Those scheming rapscallions. It's almost like they have a PLAN!!

[ExDem]

The question the vast majority of people in America have is what is wrong with acknowledging Christmas? The national holiday instituted by our Federal Government is called "Christmas". The reason that holiday was recognized is because it is reflective of the tradition of the vast majority of our citizens.

It's not a matter of persecution. It's a matter of the overwhelming majority of the society having terms dictated by a tiny fraction of the population. The use of the term Christmas does not represent the establishment of a religion, thus the 1st amendment is adhered to. Thus, the attacks by an agitated minority of people on any public acknowlegement of Christmas - whether it's meant as the secular holiday, the religious event or the American tradition - that's what bothers people.

[safsaasf]

talk about blatherwatch. I thought this was a news radio blog, but instead of the inside dirt on the seattle talk radio scene, we get this crap.

I guess since the allen prell debacle has died down, there's nothing left to talk about.

Just rename the catchphrase from "listening to talk radio so you don't have to..." to

"I don't know crap about the seattle talk show scene, so let's rip on republicans!!!!"

[safsaasf]

talk about blatherwatch. I thought this was a news radio blog, but instead of the inside dirt on the seattle talk radio scene, we get this crap.

I guess since the allen prell debacle has died down, there's nothing left to talk about.

Just rename the catchphrase from "listening to talk radio so you don't have to..." to

"I don't know crap about the seattle talk show scene, so let's rip on republicans!!!!"

[Trip]

"It's not a matter of persecution. It's a matter of the overwhelming majority of the society having terms dictated by a tiny fraction of the population."

Exactly. Like the harcdore fundies to the rest of us with the Terry Schiavo fiasco.

[ExDem]

And now this, from the newly elected Democratic Governor of Virginia and future of the party:

"We can't completely separate politics and faith," Kaine told NEWSWEEK. "They rise from the same wellspring: the concern about the distance between what is and what ought to be."

Oh no.......could it be that the dreaded Christian influence has now become integral to Democratic politics? Will Trip, Sparky, Chris, Blathering, etc. become fearful of their own party? Will they start criticizing Gov. Kaine? Or Howard Dean, for leading the party in this direction and declaring what a monumental victory it was for the Democrats? Stay tuned......

[LeftTurn]

It's about time. We Democrats should start pretending to be religious in order to get elected. It's sure worked for the republicans.

[chris]

I stayed tuned to Bush' demise as that is what the majority of Americans and the media wants to see... Cheney was heckled today in Knoxville TN, once a good backdrop for Bush when he needed a place to save face, but alas even the Red states are starting to awaken. It was played today on Ed Shultz's show.

[Lump]

LeftTurn sez, "It's about time. We Democrats should start pretending to be religious in order to get elected."

Why not, you've been pretending to be anything and everything and standing for nothing. The Dems are the part of pretend.

[Trip]

I'm not afraid of the Dems finding religion...there's already plenty of Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Wiccans etc. in their ranks as it is, and they all seem to understand the finer points of "separation of church and state" just fine - just like Kaine.

Plus, Kaine wasn't the one standing on stage with Bush the day before the vote. That REALLY would have sunk him for sure.

LOL - and isn't it so charming when Republicans show such CONCERN about the direction of the Democratic party?

After seeing how they manage their own war of choice and hurricane responses - at this point - I wouldn't allow a Republican to operate my TV remote, let alone take their advice on political matters...

[sparky]

That big brush you paint us all with must get heavy, ExDem. I am a life long church goer...and I want my government to stay the hell out of my church, and I want my church to stay the hell out of my government. I want my religion to be as I choose it to be, not as a white southern Baptist thinks it should be.
I love Christmas, as do all of my friends, my liberal co-workers and everyone in my huge liberal family. This whole "controversy" just makes us laugh. Nobody is trying to take Christmas away.This call of alarm has only come about since the Reagan days when he fired up the Fundigelicals. In fact, America did not even celebrate Christmas as we know it today until the mid-to late 1800's. The founding fathers wanted nothing to do with it because it smacked of British influence. Some people may object to seeing a manger scene on government property, but our highschool choir still sings religious AND secular songs, kids at my school still draw angels, and menorahs and kwanza decorations..as it should be.

[ExDem]

So none of the stories we hear are true about the ACLU suing some city to make them remove their Christmas displays, or some company being pressured to stop their employees from using the term "Christmas" or some schools not allowing any Christmas carols?

[chris]

The displays are more in the vein of religion and not Santa, like I said earlier, there is a church on most every street corner in America. People are not having their religion taken away but if your Jewish and wish to do business at city hall, then it's not a netrual place to go anymore with baby geezus outside. The framers of the Constitution warned against constant references to religion inside government.

[sparky]

Of course there are SOME and a FEW who are protesting being forced to be a part of a religious ceremony or be surrounded by religious symbols of a religion they dont follow. But SOME and FEW do not equate to all liberals being Christmas Killers. Christmas is not under attack in the general day to day lives of MOST Americans. Go to your local mall! But Rush and Hannity and Falafal Bill want as many of their listeners as possible to think so.
Christ is in my life and in my mind every day. Everytime I see Bush on TV I say " Jesus Christ! How is it that man is still President??" ( borrowed from chris)

[ExDem]

So the standard we apply is that isolated attacks on some aspects of Christmas should not worry traditionalist Americans. Fine.

And abortion advocates should stop going into a tizzy over reasonable laws to require parental notification before minors get abortions. Or that women have to notify their spouse before an abortion. Or that abortion doctors should have to provide statistical information about the after effects of abortions (e.g., increased rates of future miscarriages, levels of psychological counseling women recieve afterward, etc.). No one is taking away their access to abortion.

And minority activists should stop all of the over the top rhetoric about returning to slavery or removing civil rights when the government or businesses take reasonable actions to treat all people equally, regardless of race. For example, when the state of Georgia asks all people to have a valid ID card in order to vote. Or when a state declares that race shall not grant favor in admissions decisions to universities. No one is taking away their civil rights.

So good - we can all agree to not be ridiculously hypersensitive when something we value is not truly under threat of being taken away.

[sparky]

...and.....if someone has so few problems in his or her life that they can afford to get so pissed off about hearing " Happy Holidays" instead of
" Merry Christmas," then I think they should get down on their knees and thank God that life is good.

[Andrew]

Thank God KIRO is leaning toward John Procaccino. Not only is he pretty cool but I hope it realy disapoints upsets Frank Shiers. Anyone who threatens us with becoming a clone of Dori Monson is no friend of mine.

[sparky]

Your analogy is flawed in that there is no legislation regarding the freedom of choice of religion, or freedom from religion, other than our founding fathers wanted us to do, or not do, our own thing without involvment of the government. There IS legislation regarding a woman's freedom to make her own choices about her own body..and when people start hearing that someone wants to legislate away christmas, as some want to take away the right for a woman to choose, we will all hear about it..LOUDLY.

Nobody is forced to get an abortion, not do I have to watch someone getting an abortion. I think everyone should have total access to sex ed and birth control so that abortions become extremely rare.

But, as chris says above, if I am not a Christian and I am bombarded with the religious aspects of the holiday, then I have lost my choice. Religious displays on private property are not the issue. If someone were to try to get all displays removed everywhere, I would agree that that person is a nutjob. Re-read what Michael says above about who gets their Santa Shorts in a twist over all this...

[ExDem]

Is a 16 year old girl a "woman"?

We have legislation that outlaws providing any medication to students without parental consent, or outlaws body piercings/tatoos on minors without parental consent.

I would have to guess that by your standards, it is perfectly reasonable, and legally consistent, that states can pass laws to require parental notification before an abortion. That doesn't even go as far as to require consent, just notification. Yet LOUD screaming and fighting occurs over sensible legislation like this. And again, access to abortion is not being threatened by such reasonable measures.

Fortunately, abortions aren't forced upon anyone. However, every abortion involves a victim that didn't get a voice in the decision. And when that victim is a baby that is 8+ months along in the womb, well, that's just a horrifying tragedy. And no one that is a Christian can feel comfortable about people that fight so hard to perpetuate the "right" to perform such a heinous act......

[Fred]

Boring - I check the site for talk radio info - at least tie it to someone's show!

[sparky]

yes a 16 year old girl is a woman in medical terms. just as a 16 year old boy is a man in medical terms. Both are capable of producing a pregnancy.

Yes I think she should be able to have an abortion without telling her parents. If you think all families are like Ozzie and Harriet and the parents will be loving and understanding when learning their daughter is pregnant..well..you need to get out more.

Yeah yeah, I know your argument about cells really being a baby...Cons are always pro-birth. Its what happens after the baby is born that amazes me...health care? NO!! NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY! help for single mothers who are struggling to support their kids? HELL NO! THEY SHOULD HAVE MADE BETTER DECISIONS!!
As long as you can prevent a woman from ending a pregnancy, your work is done. Too bad about what happens afterwards. The Pope does not understand this at all.

so, dont try to convince me EDem, cuz I ain't gonna try to convince YOU. It's a waste of time.

[sparky]

Fred! Dori Monson, KIRO afternoon, is famous for ranting about how people are poor because they made bad decisions and it's all their fault. There you go.

[Andrew]

I kindof wish the comment sections had a tree-branch thread layout so you wouldn't have to scroll past these thousand word essays to find comments that are on topic or atleast loosely related to the topic.

[bj]

Speaking of Dori, and the thread subject, today his opening hour was about... government employees who were asked not to say grace at the office Thanksgiving party. Ho-hum...

[chris]

It would seem that because of Dori's poor ratings that Kiro has had to use Dave Ross on TV to try to bring listeners back.

[sparky]

Andrew...were you referring to your comment upthread about John Procachino?

[sparky]

oh, and Andrew..I was just teasing you :-)
I, too, wonder how we start with Christmas and end up with abortion.....

[Andrew]

There's nothing wrong with the content, just the way it's organized.

[ExDem]

We ended up with abortion because I introduced it into the thread. I've read how people on this thread want to dismiss any notion of "Christmas under attack". It seemed that they would agree that people get irrationally overheated in other areas (like abortion, or gun rights, or civil rights) even though their fundamental cause isn't "under attack".

I wandered a bit further onto the abortion trail because I was stunned to read how someone that is Christian wasn't saddened by abortion. I guess I can understand secularists not being at all bothered by the topic. But Christians? Yikes!

There - I won't push the topic in that direction anymore.