take your answer off the air...

  • HorsesAss.Org: the straight poop on WA politics & the press
    progressive brilliance from the guy who pointed out Tim Eyman's nascent horse's-assedness
  • Talker's Magazine
    The quirky talk radio trade mag. Check the Talk Radio Research Project- it's not very scientific, but places on the top 15 talkers list (scroll down to Talk Radio Audiences By Size)) are as hotly contested as Emmys (and mean just about as much).
  • The Advocate
    No, not THAT Advocate... it's the Northwest Progressive Institute's Official Blog.
  • Media Matters
    Documentation of right-wing media in video, audio and text.
  • Orcinus
    home of David Neiwert, freelance investigative journalist and author who writes extensively about far-right hate groups
  • Hominid Views
    "People, politics, science, and whatnot" Darryl is a statistician who fights imperialism with empiricism, gives good links and wry commentary.
  • Jesus' General
    An 11 on the Manly Scale of Absolute Gender, a 12 on the Heavenly Scale of the 10 Commandments and a 6 on the earthly scale of the Immaculately Groomed.
  • Howie in Seattle
    Howie Martin is the Abe Linkin' of progressive Seattle.
  • Streaming Radio Guide
    Hellishly long (5795!) list of radio streaming, steaming on the Internets.
  • The Naked Loon
    News satire -- The Onion in the Seattle petunia patch.
  • Irrational Public Radio
    "informs, challenges, soothes and/or berates, and does so with a pleasing vocal cadence and unmatched enunciation. When you listen to IPR, integrity washes over you like lava, with the pleasing familiarity of a medium-roast coffee and a sensible muffin."
  • The Maddow Blog
    Here's the hyper-interactive La Raych of MSNBC. daily show-vids, freakishly geeky research, and classy graphics.
  • Northwest Broadcasters
    The AM, FM, TV and digital broadcasters of Northwest Washington, USA and Southwest British Columbia, Canada. From Kelso, WA to the northern tip of Vancouver Island, BC - call letters, formats, slogans, networks, technical data, and transmitter maps. Plus "recent" news.
  • News Corpse
    The Internet's chronicle of media decay.
  • The Moderate Voice
    The voice of reason in the age of Obama, and the politics of the far-middle.
  • News Hounds
    Dogged dogging of Fox News by a team who seems to watch every minute of the cable channel so you don't have to.
  • HistoryLink
    Fun to read and free encyclopedia of Washington State history. Founded by the late Walt Crowley, it's an indispensable tool and entertainment source for history wonks and surfers alike.

right-wing blogs we like

  • The Reagan Wing
    Hearin lies the real heart of Washington State Republicans. Doug Parris runs this red-meat social conservative group site which bars no holds when it comes to saying who they are and who they're not; what they believe and what they don't; who their friends are and where the rest of the Republicans can go. Well-written, and flaming.
  • Orbusmax
    inexhaustible Drudgery of NW conservative news
  • The Radio Equalizer
    prolific former Seattle KVI, KIRO talk host speaks authoritatively about radio.
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June 29, 2005



"No Pudding for you!"

"let them eat pudding"

-Karl "Antoinette" Rove


I remember LBJ's huge "credibility gap" problems with Vietnam...Bush is nowhere close to how LBJ lied. Nixon did get us out of Vietnam. And lets not forget JFK, who first sent "advisors" to 'Nam.


You can only put so much lipstick on a pig....
When Fox News reports that the short applause was "fake", when Drudge has a lead headline about Prince Harry instead of King George, when your choir at KVI admits to being disappointed.....that's bad.


I'm wondering about the "get the kids" to enlist part of the speech.

I've said repeatedly that we'll move out of the country before allowing my son to fight Bush war in the Middle East. I can't imagine I'm the only parent that feels this way.

I don't get why Bush doesn't start putting pressure on all those Republican families who support this foray into quagmiredom. He sure as hell isn't getting my kid.


I "stopped, looked, and listened" to the entire oration, played and replayed, so how did I miss the part about Iraq's raison d'etre, WMD???!!! Love your links, Michael...

Michael B.

Carla: Some pointers.
1) There is no draft (no matter how much you wish there were).
2) When you "child" is of age to serve in the military (i.e. 18 yrs old) it will be his/her choice, not yours.
3) Why wait for your child to be sent to the Middle East to move? Move now, please.


There are only so many "wal-mart" communities left to send their kids off to war, and even those are thinking twice before choosing over the luster of video games inside tanks and planes vs. self-imposed wage restrictions brought on by big box consent.

There is no draft yet? Where is the next group going to come from if and when Bushler has to invade Iran et al? Bushler is full of more shit than a xmas goose when he claims to be able to flex his muscle anywhere and have broad support.

His speeches are canned, as well as the applause (but not the laughter off stage) Me thinks Iran and others will remain off-limits as a war done on the cheap and without a true coalition while the current fiasco in Iraq goes on with no exit plan does not create any appeal for dreaming new wars...

This country has a "go-it-alone" strategy and that is the only thing it has to show for it.


To Chris...
I like being brief....so, regarding your thoughtless remarks about "walmart" boys joining the military and going off to war is an outrage. These BOYS and some GIRLS have scarificed everything to give YOU have a right to make your incredible, wrong headed reamrks. I favor bringing back that old 60's mantra...America, Love It or Leave it. Just don't let the door hit you on your ass as you leave the country to spout off somewhere else.


Go sign up then Duane, Readers Digest probably has some flag decals left over from the 60's as well. and Duane...they have sacrificed for what? A LIE? c'mon Duane, what is it they died for if it wasn't WMD's? They are mostly from small towns where Wal Mart is the only game in town--go look it up

blathering Michael

Duane, I really get tired of that old Love it or Leave it crap...that's the mindset that created Good Germans. Protest and dissent and questioning authority is a traditional value in this country which was founded by a bunch of intellectual revolutionaries...Why is it only when liberals ask questions that patriotism is questioned? Why is it only suggested that we relocate when we criticize the gov't? Conservatives are far more critical of gov't in general--why wasn't their loyalty in doubt when they were in the minority and bitterly whining for so long? Why weren't they told to leave when they complained about every single policy, foreign and domestic that Clinton or the Democratic majority supported or enacted?
"Love it, or Leave it" is simply unAmerican, an anathema to real conservatism and very dangerous. You're better than that, my friend.


The war in Iraq has nothing to do with our free speech!! Saddam was a FRIEND of the Bush Dynasty until he was no longer useful. While Saddam was doing despicable things to his people, my freedom of speech was just fine. Now that he is no longer in power, nothing about him has changed my rights as a citizen, thousands of miles away.

The danger to my free speech comes from within my own country, where people like Duane don't want to listen to my, and others', opinions if they are different from theirs. Disagree with me, or with chris or with anyone on here all that you want Duane. We are happy to engage in debate. But don't any of you tell me I can't say what I want..not only is it unpatriotic and unamerican, but it's the coward's way out.

And for those of you who like this war so much, your local recruiter is just waiting for you to help him meet his July quota.


Blathering Michael,

The difference is that there are many liberals that have negative feelings about America and it's role in the world. And, these anti-American lefties are not rebuked by the mainstream progressives or the Democratic party.

Republicans complained about Clinton and Carter, this is definitely true. But they don't express anger toward America and it's role as the lone superpower. They didn't like the people leading the government but they don't embrace the radical wing (e.g., Militias) of their party.

For a change, it might be nice to see "patriotic" liberals that proudly displayed the flag at their protest rallies rather than burning it or dragging it in the mud. It might be nice if they weren't overly preoccupied with apologizing for every American policy enacted by a Republican-led government while turning a blind eye toward the grevious human rights abuses of radical Islamic countries, the PLO, communists, etc.

It's hard to be taken seriously if you say you love someone but never pay them a compliment or have a positive word to say about them. Saying you are patriotic and loving America don't line up very well with actions that indicate negative feelings about America (e.g., flag burning, comparing our soldiers to the Nazis, asking that our soldiers and government leaders be jailed for "war crimes", etc.).

There's the challenge. You'll start to change hearts and minds if you can demonstrate that you love this country and you are willing to work together to make it even better. Just sitting around criticizing and being negative is alienating middle of the road people - that's why Democrats have been steadily losing power the last few election cycles.


The flag burning took place outside of America..that is how low we have sunk in the eyes of the world. I have been to many protests in many cities --protests about the ACTIONS of my county, not because I dont love my country--and there has been no abuse or desecration of anything. And you know if that had happened, the media would have made those pictures front and center of every newspaper out there. So, if you have proof of this happening, please show it.

Your argument is one I hear all the time from parents who refuse to believe their child is responsible for doing wrong. It is always someone else's fault.
To paraphrase your words from my perspective:
It's hard to be taken seriously if you say you love someone but never expect them to be responsible for their behavior. Saying you are patriotic and loving America doesn't line up very well with actions that indicate intolerance of those who are horrified to see our once respected nation do things that we castigate others for doing. It doesnt line up very will with low expectations of a government who lies about everything. It doesnt line up very well with believing those lies and claiming that America is above all criticism because, hey-we're AMERICA and we are above wrongdoing.

If you think dissent is only about hating your country...you are not paying attention.
If you think the only people who attend protests are old hippies who trash the flag, you are not paying attention. If you think I have to like George Bush and what he does in order to love America, you are wrong. I do love America. I love the America that respects the rights of everyone, not just those who can pay for them. I love the America who listens to others and helps others and does not move in and take over a country just because it can. I love the America that does not act like Communist Russia when it comes to thwarting public discourse.

There's the challenge. You'll start to change hearts and minds if you can demonstrate that you love this country and you are willing to accept that America is like a very sick relative right now. You still love the relative very very much, but you want them to get better. Just sitting around criticizing and being negative is alienating to those independent voters who helped elect Bush in November and now they have buyer's remorse. Help us look for ways to get our old America back--the one that people were clamoring to get into, the one that gave everyone a break...the one that wasnt so arrogant.


And ex-dem,there are negative people like Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols, who harbor tons of anti-americanism by blowing people up based on their ideology, which is far from 'liberal' and who was pumped up by the likes of Limbaugh and fed to the wolves when caught.

Evidently, you have failed to attend many if not 1 rally in which I personally see lots of american flags displayed. You see, the flag was used as an issue during the last great, failed war..Vietnam.

Protesters were attacked by carrying this symbol as a means to disfuse any misunderstanding, but by god, some anti-americans had to go and try to take it away from them at protest rallies. I can see why flag burning amendments are popular among those who wrap themselves in the flag.

Sorry, but you fail to understand the difference between criticism of ones country and demonizing anyone who does not agree with your take on it by calling them unpatriotic, which is what you are right now.


Nice try Chris, but you're trying to obfuscate. Criticism of the country is not unpatriotic. Believing that your country is more evil than Saddam's Iraq is unpatriotic. Treating national symbols with disrespect is unpatriotic. Not agreeing with a single thing your government does just because the opposite party is in power is unpatriotic.

Criticism coupled with constructive actions and a spirit of cooperation can be patriotic. It's rare to see that type of behavior from liberals. Joe Lieberman seems like an example of someone who geniunely wants the best for the country. He criticizes the administration for somethings but is willing to work cooperatively on solutions. If more liberals were like him, Democrats might actually gain more popular support. Instead, the hard core liberals seem to prefer the rhetoric of Ward Churchill, Michael Moore, etc.

No one from the Republican party embraces the crimes of McVeigh and Nichols. However, so called "progressive" universities invite people like Ward Churchill to speak to their students or invite convicted cop killers as their graduation speakers. So draw your own conclusions about what middle America should make about that.

I've been to protest rallies in the past 3 years - can't avoid them in Seattle in the places where I've worked. I have personally witnessed the crowds on opposing corners of the street regarding the war protest/support rallies, and I've seen the people opposed to the war (the lefties) displaying the American flag in these ways:

- upside down
- on the ground, stepping on it
- with a swaztika painted on it
- with the stars and white stripes colored black

So don't pretend that there are protest rallies going on where the lefties are parading around, proudly displaying the flag. Democrates will remain the minority until average Americans start seeing liberals say things like "I love America and we are a great nation. I disagree with some of the policies of the current administration, but I rebuke anyone that would say that our President is Hitler, or that we are the most evil nation on earth, or any other extremely nutty things."



I hear what you are saying and can feel your passion. You obviously feel that America has lost it's way and has sunk to some low state we were not previously in.

So, here are 2 simple questions:

1. When was America at it's best?

2. What made America so much better at that time?


"ex-dem" Is the Patriot Act, patriotic?



I'll model a good behavior for you to follow. I will actually answer your question. And perhaps, you will answer the simple questions I posed to you.

The Patriot Act is patriotic. Our elected representatives passed the Patriot Act as a means to protect our citizens. They basically extended existing laws and procedures used in pursuing drug dealers and mafia to the law enforcement efforts regarding terrorists.

There, a straightforward answer. I'll look forward to your response to my questions.


no, the liberals are the minority is not the issue, in fact, most people identify with the progressive wing of both parties. It is the average person who is looking at their pocketbook and see things like health insurance and civil liberties disapeering more than some lithmus test over how much they "love' their country. Can you address 48 million americans without health insurance? Can you?

blathering Michael

I am so loving this discussion...


I dont think its patriotic to demand to see what books have been checked out of a library...reader privacy is very important. And, just because Congress passed it doesnt make it automatically patriotic..most members admit they DIDNT EVEN READ IT because they were not given time...hello????? You need to read it more closely. There are things in there the mafia would have never even thought about...

I have been giving some thought to your questions, which is why I did not rush to reply.

Every generation has had its issues with racism, gender inequalities, bigotry, lying, cheating and stealing. I could choose many times in our history where life was pretty good for most people and turn around and show you how it wasnt so good for others.
Can I pick a date off the calendar and say it was better "then"? Nope. But I can tell you the things that are happening "now" that didnt happen "then" and even those dont come close to explaining the gut feeling I have about how wrong we have become....

I could disagree with someone without them accusing me of hating God and my country.
I didnt have to listen to Anne Coulter tell me how great McCarthy was and how we should just shoot liberals.
People did not make fun of soldiers who won purple hearts in war, by mocking them with purple bandaids.
I did not have a president who mocked a woman about to be executed and lied to the nation over and over to keep them afraid so he could advance his agenda.
I didnt have to worry about my personal safety when I traveled abroad when locals found out I was an American.

I could list dozens of other examples. There is a line in a song " You dont know what you've got 'til its gone." When Kennedy was assassinated, the world mourned...if something like that happened to George W., there would be cheering all over the world. And no, that does not make me happy. That makes me very very sad.


This is how the republicans respond in typical fashion by dividing and demonizing when faced with questions. It was a coalition of people on both sides that grew tired of Nixon and Watergate..it will happen again



I appreciate the earnestness of your response. I'm not sure how you will know when things are better. Without some sort of criteria or standard to apply, how can you describe what we should do to improve the country?

I don't think reasonable people feel that those disagreeing with them hate God and country. However, there are lots of religious people that feel like there is a segment of people on the left that are indeed hostile to people of faith. And there are lots of people that love the USA that feel like there is a segment of people on the left that indeed feel that America is an evil country.

The problem those people that love God and country have is that one party seems to embrace those that appear to be hostile to religion and country. Until that party changes that perception, those people will continue to support the other party.


well, these south Florida vets dont hate their country, no sireee...





I'll assume you honestly believe that anti-war protesters don't treat the flag disrespectfully. Since you have never seen such pictures, here are some links to photos from Iraq war protests. Seems to be lots of people in the pictures, but no real evidence of American flags - except when the flag is upside down, or the stars are replaced by corporate logos, or there is something painted on it that says "War is terrorism", etc.


Oh, and then there's this link. About halfway down the page, there is the American flag with the swaztika painted on it.


Now you won't be in danger of spreading the false perception that leftist protesters are running around showing respect for the American flag.

Who cares

draft.... they are already pulling National Guard out of Alaska, it used to be those were the last to go.... hmm who needs a draft when he can just pluck out the small town boys.... some people are so blind it hurts


again, exdem, all you have is symbolism, wheres the real support for the troops when they come home to VA centers while their budget is being cut.



Why don't we cut to the chase instead of the constant game of dodge and evade the issue?

Yes, support for the troops includes paying them properly and caring for them as they return from war or as they retire. No argument there.

If you want to call it symbolism, fine. Symbols are outward signs of inner feelings and meanings. So yes, symbolism is important. Those who trash our national symbols appear to be revealing inner feelings of negativity/hatred/disgust with the thing being symbolized - America.

It's easy for people like me to say "I love America". It's easy for people like me to say "I support our troops". It's easy for me to treat our national symbols with respect because of my love of our country. And it's easy for me to say "Our government should do more for our troops".

All of that is easy because I'm willing to work to make all of those things true. If all I'm committed to is criticizing and complaining, I guess it might be harder for me to make all of those statements.

Something or someone does not have to be perfect for me to love them. My mom isn't perfect and I love her. My wife isn't perfect and I love her. My kids aren't perfect and I love them. My country isn't perfect and I love it.

Would you treat your loved one's imperfections by demonizing them? By insulting them? Sure, you can question them or offer constructive criticism - and if you truly love them, that love will shine through. It would be hard for your wife to think you loved her if your response to one of her short comings was to throw your wedding ring in the fire or paint a swaztika over your wedding portrait.




ex dem...go back and read what I said about America being the sick relative...you still dont understand....its not about hating the country, its hating what the country does...two different things entirely. You still seem to think that those of us who hate what our country does sometimes means we hate our country. Wrong.
I doubt we will see eye to eye on this....
And what exactly have you "done" to make things better? Just curious ...I was a delegate to my county convention, I have made phone calls, I pass out literature, I protest peacefully, I write letters to the editor, I talke to friends -family-enemies, I call in to talk shows, I ask lots of questions, I read papers from all over the worldm, and I know that chris and others on here did all those things too.....not exactly the actions of people who hate our country.


I can wave the flag and say "fuck you" to Bush all I want, it's that simple. Today, however is Canada Day and my Cdn flag is out as well as an honor to all those Canadians who took in passengers stranded during 9/11



I think we would have trouble seeing eye to eye on this matter because I get the sense that you guys are not able to describe what our country "does" that makes you love it. When I asked the question earlier, the response was that your gut told you we were off course. Well, in a big country like ours with the dominant role in the world we play, there will always be a division among our people regarding our nation's policies and actions.

I can easily describe for anyone the things that I love about our country. And I've loved our country whether Carter was President or Reagan, Clinton or Bush. It's easy to criticize decisions that others make, especially if your ideas are never enacted so that we can compare results. But, people running the government at some point have to make decisions and get things done. As citizens, we wouldn't settle for leaders whose response to every difficult issue was "It's complicated" and then took no action.

I get the sense that your response to terrorism would not involve taking on enemies of the US directly, or holding regimes that are supportive of terrorism accountable. Well, the people of America had a chance to vote on this in 2004, and they re-elected the people that invaded Afghanistan and Iraq. They rejected the idea of the other side that somehow we would be safer by not taking the hard actions and allowing the status quo in the Middle East.

I'm glad you're active in politics. That's a good way to try and get someting done. I served in the military for 10 years. I perform community service with my church. I donate 10% of my income to charities. And I vote. And lately, the people I've been voting for have been winning elections because I appear to be in agreement with the majority of people.

Non-extremists don't decide to say F*** the President when he comes from the other political party. And they don't suddenly decide that America is totally on the wrong track within a few minutes of their Presidential candidate losing.

Maybe there's a way to bring this discussion to a close. Perhaps you could list the 5 biggest things wrong with the country that the Bush administration and the Republican Congress have caused. It would be interesting to understand what those things are. And just to show your balance, you could list the top 3 things the current administration has done that you admire or support. I'd be willing to respond to those lists. And, if you're up to it, I'd offer the same list for either the Bush administration or the Clinton administration.


I think the best thing is to move on...I have already tried to explain my feelings as have you and we are never going to come to agreement. It doesnt matter what I "list" here...I will never convince you of my viewpoint, and frankly, thats not why I come here. I come here to read and sometimes post a reaction and we have done a lot of that.
We can agree to disagree.

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