Open Thread- befuddled and dithering, mr. blatherWatch goes to caucus

Darn impressed with both candidates, and happy that Washington State matters this year, we're toddling off to our caucus where we hope we'll be led to a winning decision.

It's so close for us that trifles like "walking around money," or the candidate with the best snacks could tilt the balance.

It's a happy problem, this abundance of competence and viability -- Republicans are riven; their stalwarts hate their candidate, aged warmonger, John McCain.

McCain drew 400 in Seattle on Friday; while Obama drew 21,000 in Key Arena, and Hillary 5-6000 in separate events around the state.

(Republicans are already grumbling about settling for the consolation prize of "giving it to the Democrats, letting them ruin the country, then picking up the pieces in four years." It's a strategy we endorse!).

Rush Limbaugh has impaled himself railing against McCain; but he says that the decision for the Democrats is up to white males:

Since the New Hampshire primary, white women have been consistently siding with Clinton. They represent a disproportionate share of the Democratic electorate because they are both more likely to be Democrats and more likely to vote.  Black voters are backing Obama in numbers trending toward the unanimous. Well, for the first time in history there's no white guy running on the Democrat side.  You have the black guy and the white girl. You have the black guy, the ex-wife, and you have white men trying to figure out, "What the hell do we do?"  Most of these white guys have been neutered.  They've been feminized because they're Democrat liberals.  ...  They're looking here, and they're conflicted as hell.

As a white male with the empowerment granted us by The Maha Rushee... we're off to select the next President of the United States.

Wish us Godspeed or tear us a new one, we'll get back to you...

Comments

[YellowPup]

Yep, that's an awfully large cigar.

[Loozertarian]

My junk is way bigger than Rush's. (And since Rush is childless, we have no evidence that his swimmers - if he has any - can tell the difference between an egg and a golf ball. Mine, on the other hand, are both numerous and discerning.)

Do us white boys proud, Michael.

[chucks]

Ok, I really tried. Could not do it. Got to the school gym, signed in. Got to listen to some folks talk. Lot of excitement in that group. It just struck me as odd that folks were talking about which one of the two would come up with the most stuff for them. Just a little off from what I remember as a kid from JFK. When did it become "Ask not what you can do for your country, but what can your country do for you". I felt real awkward in that group. They were even different than Thanksgiving or Christmas with my family. At least my libtard family talks about what gummint can do for others, not for them.
Any way, picking between Hillary and Obama for me ended up being like trying to pick up a turd from the clean side. Didn't want to touch either end.
Do not know what I am going to do now, but that was not it.
Sorry Fremont.

[gk91]

Chucks-- that changed when we moved from being citizens to consumers.
At least Obama talks about change coming from the bottom up and less about 'this is what I (and my government) will do for you'.

[joanie]

Well, chucks, maybe there's a lot of people who aren't doing as well as you. Maybe you should have asked some questions instead of waiting to hear whatever it was you wanted to hear...

In school. one of the things we call critical thinking is "inquiry based..." Might try it.

[Janet Morrow]

"talks about change coming"

Blah blah blah...anybody can say anything. Action talks and bullshit walks.

Vote for Hillary.

[chucks]

Good grief joanie
Do not expect you to give me credit for having a brain. I was sitting at a table talking to them. Do not know what all of them do, but one worked at Boeing in Frederickson, one was a Puyallup teacher and one was a nurse at Good Samaritan Hosp and another was a Grocery checker. None were rich, but all had good jobs. Not a one of these folks with above average jobs said a word about excess gummint spending or bloated "social spending".
Mooches, the whole lot. If you can get it for free, why pay for it mentality. Not all of them, but enough.
I think that I shall laugh at your not doing as well as me comment. I sell rv's, remember. Got minimum wage for December and not much better for January. Last year ended down 10%. Expect this year to be off 25% because it is an election year with no incumbent. The Democrats and press will scare folks into a recession to get an advantage. They always do. It works too, look at your first statement to me. And you gots one o' them gummint jobs and they have frightened you.

[joanie]

You make my point, chucks. I guess people aren't doing so well and can't afford those high end RVs you depend on for your commissions. Right?

Were these caucus goers married? How old were they? Do you have any idea how hard it is on one income? As for your poor low-pay minimum wage job, why not get another one. You've got a working spouse. Why should you be making minimum wage unless you want to? Or is it possible that the "minimum wage" cry of pitiful me is only true a couple months a year? Sounds like a swiftie to me.

You're an old codger who bought his house when Seattle didn't ask so much and who has no idea how hard it is to make a living wage anymore. Or you got it when you married someone who makes a lot more than minimum wage. Right? You've got yours.

I can't make a general answer to your general charge that people want "gummint" to take care of them. I guess you're just a better person than the rest of us.

You seem to just not care about people. You like corporations. You like subsidies for CEO's and oil companies. And you want to make sure you keep yours. So I guess you're just like them. What can government do for me?

You know, chucks, if I were meaner than I am, I'd wish a really expensive and totally chronic disease on you. You need to learn a lesson about healthcare. And, declaring bankruptcy wouldn't help because your side made sure corporations were protected.

What were you doing at a Democratic caucus anyway? You hate government (another one of your hates - there are so many, hard to keep up) but Democrats aren't in the Democratic Party to hate. We tend to be a group who cares...

That's the difference between us and the party of money. And if you're so concerned about "gummint" spending, why would you prefer a president who wants to keep war going for another hundred years? Is war cheap now?

I don't understand people like you. When push comes to shove, the only thing you really, really want is to keep your money. Well, keep it. We don't need it that badly. Besides, the Republican war machine will exact a heavier price from you one day. I'm certain of that.

[PugetSound]

Joanie
Chucks has talked about his issues with the medical insurance companies (recall that issue just a few months ago that was on our ballot?) so he is well versed in the subject.
Plus, someone who depends upon sales can have great times and bad times. Crap, selling RVs has to be one of the most cyclic products of all. You're the one with the steady pay/benies. He is out there everyday.

Now here is the big question if anyone wants to take a shot at it: Superdelegates. Are people happy with 'em taking over the process at the end if hillary and obama are running neck and neck?

And lets give some credit to Obama and the campaign he is running. He could essentially rid the dems of the odorous Clinton machine.

[joanie]

chucks, power and interesting discussion of 9-11 and torture on Democracy Now KPTK online. Just fascinating. You really should listen to radio that informs. One of the best programs for that.

See, putsie. Without me, you'd be hardly a blip on BW. :)

[joanie]

BTW, occasionally we talk about women on radio and it occurred to me as I was listening to AA - Seven Days in America with Mark Green, Katrina VH (Nation Magazine) and Arianna that KPTK has more women on air than any other station.

Stephanie Miller, Randi Rhodes, Rachel Maddow, Amy Goodman, Huffington, Vanden Heuvel - all have prominent status and on-air time with KPTK.

You like women, chucks. Give it a try.

[joanie]

He could essentially rid the dems of the odorous Clinton machine.

Always back to the Clintons with you, isn't it. Getting rather tedious, putsie.

[Dangerous Dan]

21,000 for Obama?

KIRO reported 18,000.

KVI reported 20,000.

Seems those numbers are completely relative to one's political interest.

[Les Nessman]

18,000 packed into Key Arena, 3,000 turned away...

[Duffman]

joanie: thrilled to hear that you may now be considering Mrs Clinton. :)

[PugetSound]

Why can't you give the Obama credit for an incredibly well run campaign. Hillary has had all the advantages in terms of name recognition, party machinery, and $$$ YET, Obama has pulled up even.

Obama is the X factor. He matches up better against McCain.

I forgot, you enjoyed all those Clinton scandals didn't you.

[joanie]

I don't pay attention to all the scandal crap that you do, putsie. That's what the right is all about - hate and scandal, whether proven or not.

You keep proving what an idiot you are.

Duffman, I never hated her. I have always admired the woman she is. She is smart, savvy, independent, and a problem solver. Always has been.

But, she's a little too far to the right for me. That's why I wanted Edwards. He's the best of her and the best of Obama.

I'll be fine with Obama. Just hope he can be as scrappy as I know she can be. As I said on another thread, we need a clean-up crew more than we need a compromiser right now. And her health-care plan is the best.

And anybody that would vote for a Republican just because they "hate" Hillary deserves the neverending war that choice would buy this country. I don't think even Republicans are that stupid. But, I could be wrong. I think they'd stay home first.

[PugetSound]

duff
you do realize it was only a knee jerk reaction to my post. the second you mention hillary she will knee jerk back the other way. it gets a little dizzy, eh?
pretty soon she'll be yelling, heyyyAbotttttttt!'

[Duffman]

Puts: IMHO you're spot on with the super delegates...she's got 'em locked up I think. I'm counting on it. :)

[PugetSound]

it it isn't handled right don't you think that will be a turn off to the new voters who find all their hard work for naught?
some will still come out to vote. but others may find better things to do come election day.

As you probably noted Duff, joanie avoids the hard question.

[joanie]

Wishful thinking again putsie?

Smart move to ignore his plea for attention, doffo.

[joanie]

putsie, haven't you figured it out yet? I avoid a lot of your posts because they are not worth the time it takes to read them. They are usually rehashes of rehashes or pleas for my attention. Why should I care?

BTW, doffo, you took the bait about superdelegates. What was his point, anyway?

[PugetSound]

It's a real issue for the Democratic Party come this November. To a lessor extent it is true of the Republicans. To suggest otherwise is to ignore history.

[Nevets]

"I avoid a lot of your posts because they are not worth the time it takes to read them."

Puts, if she comes here and does this, is it safe to say she does this to her students also. I wonder how many stars were never handed out because Joanie had a few to many the night before and used this excuse for some here students work so she can meet her schedule?

[sparky]

Puts..Howard Dean is trying to get the superdelegates to vote BEFORE the convention, like the rest of us, so they wont have undue influence.

Chucks, thanks for trying, anyway. I would never be able to go to a republican caucus.

[Loozertarian]

The bottom line, friends and neighbors, is that we have to win in November. There are tons of independent voters in this country who are well disposed toward Obama but not toward Hillary. Since McCain is seen by many of those independent voters as somewhat moderate, or at least as something other than a far-right lunatic, he will make decent inroads among them. As such, we need to move heaven and earth to coax as many of them to our side as humanly possible, and there is simply no way that Hillary Clinton is the person to do that. We could make a thousand clones of her husband and send them to the four corners of the nation and it wouldn't get the job done. (Especially if a few of those clones were to flirt with the Willie Horton Lite tactics Bubba employed recently.)

Just one man's opinion, of course.

[PugetSound]

nevets
she claims not to read 'em but she sure as heck remembers them. :) hmmm.
i do hope that joanie stays on the blog. just wish she would take it down a notch and be a little more respectful of others. when she really puts her mind to it her posts can be pretty good. unfortunately, she gets intellectually lazy and instead of trying to reach some common understanding of where the other is coming from instead has to become a real flame-hole at times.
i voted for W twice, Dole and Clinton before that.
if i had to take a look, i would seriously look at Obama over McCain if I knew what kind of foreign policy team he would put together. Of course, that needs to be fleshed out during 2008. But Obama has run a heck of a national campaign. She just can't get her noodle wrapped around that fact. Blam hit it in his description of the Caucus.

[joanie]

Loozer, what did Bill do that was Willie Horton-like?

[PugetSound]

Sparky
That would be a positive step if Dean could accomplish that. But I think we both see that it will be a delicate dance.
Loozertarian
I am one of those that is in the middle. It could be that -as Joanie pointed out earlier- I am one of those that is just putting on to Obama what I hope will occur with him. I do know that Hillary is a known product and frankly Ann Coulter had it right, she is probably more conservative than McCain.
I like McCain. But I am concerned about his age. And something about electing an African American to the top post would be such a positive sign for this country. IMHO.
Anyway, Loozertarian how do you think the Superdelagate issue should be handled to avoid turning off other voters.

[joanie]

A really good commentary on the Clinton-Obama appeal by my favorite analyst of all things political, David Sirota: " Obama, the person who fought blue-collar joblessness in the shadows of shuttered factories, is winning wealthy enclaves. But Clinton, the person whose globalization policies helped shutter those factories, is winning blue-collar strongholds.

Obama, who was schooled by the same organizing networks as Cesar Chavez, is being endorsed by hedge fund managers. But Clinton, business’s favorite, is being endorsed by the United Farm Workers—the union that Chavez created.

Obama, the candidate from Chicago’s impoverished South Side, is finding support on Connecticut’s gilded south coast. But Hillary Clinton, the candidate representing Big Money, is finding support from those with relatively little money. "

Maybe I don't need to worry about Obama afterall. He may still be one of us! (Not you, chucks. But those of us with hearts. Sparky gives you too much credit.)

Michael, we may not know Obama's heart. He may be scrappier than we think. Let's hope so.

[coiler]

I saw only 3 folks for Clinton at my precinct, all old. The rest were for Obama, lots of young people but mostly blue-collar/govt service stiffs. The statement by those supporting Barack was "Hillary is too divisive",.. "she is too much of a corporate insider"..etc.

[PugetSound]

coiler, your comments kind of mirror Blam's and what I see when I canvass friends/relatives on the topic. we might be seeing a movement away from the boomers to the post boomer generation.

Hillary SHOULD have all the union support given her one time heir apparent status and the long standing Clinton machine.

if Hillary can't run a presidential campaign given all of the advantages she had coming in, then it doesn't bode well for running the country.

[joanie]

The "Mrs. Wall Street" label will forever dog her. And it should.

I'll never forgive Bill Clinton for WTO and Nafta. I wonder if those represented his convictions or hers?

Putsie, first of all, the rules about superdelegates were made before the election cycle started and I believe rules should be followed - well, most of the time. I don't see how having them vote before the convention will change anything. They see the momentum. Any influence will have already been applied. Barbara Boxer has already said she'd follow the will of her constituency. Of course, many of her constituency voted early...

Like the Dwight Pelz discarding of Hong Tran's prospects, the Democratic Party has a lot of manipulative and old-party methods for getting its way rather than the peoples' way. That is anathema to me.

Loozer: you never win when you play the hand of desperation.

[joanie]

Hillary SHOULD have all the union support given her one time heir apparent status and the long standing Clinton machine.

Explain, please.

The Republicans DIDN'T have an heir and long-standing machine? I"m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here . . . again, your logic is hard to pin down.

[PugetSound]

I understand that the rules were made beforehand, but you are going to have a lot of newer folks to the party that will take it for what it is: Grandpa refusing to give up the car keys. This could be your internal Florida brouhaha perfect storm.
If it comes down to Obama ahead by a few votes in the delegate count yet denied by the Clinton Machine via the party elite ie Super Delegates they may have won a hollow victory. Not to put too fine a point on it, Hillary has huge negatives and will need every vote she can get. Don't forget that Hillary will inspire/motivate the Repubs to turn out in force.

[PugetSound]

Sorry, I should have made it clearer. I am discussing Hillary and Obama. So I am speaking about the Democratic Party and those unions likely to support the Democratic nominee.

[joanie]

Grandpa refusing to give up the car keys.

WTF?

This could be your internal Florida brouhaha perfect storm.

Like 2000 when the Supreme Court chose our President?

If it comes down to Obama ahead by a few votes in the delegate count yet denied by the Clinton Machine via the party elite ie Super Delegates they may have won a hollow victory.

Like in 2000? And, what's a "hollow" victory anyway. Winning is winning, isn't it?

Not to put too fine a point on it, Hillary has huge negatives and will need every vote she can get.

Huge negatives for you maybe. And other Republicans.

Don't forget that Hillary will inspire/motivate the Repubs to turn out in force.

How do you know? I think they'll stay home before they put their kids in the hands of the warmonger. You've never given me reason to think you have a crystal ball before ... why should I think you have one now? I think you're parroting talk radio again. Again, your logic escapes me. Unless, of course, you are admitting that all Republicans love war and want their kids to fight. And if they have to expend their kids to prove a point about Hillary, well then, darn it, they'll just have to do it.

[PugetSound]

Grandpa -car key reference was about the demographics of support between the two and the sea change you may be having over who will control the Dem party.
Hollow victory in that you may win the nomination but be unable to win the general as many of the newer people that are attracted to Obama may not come in November.
The huge negatives is acknowledged by most political scientist/pundits and backed up with polls. Hillary has a hard time getting over the mid 40's in a general election.

[coiler]

Edwards still has 61 delegates

[PugetSound]

coiler
i had forgotten. he may play the role of kingmaker when it gets to be convention time. are those committed delegates or are they able to switch on their own?

[Loozertarian]

Puget, I have no idea how the superdelegate situation should be handled. I can only hope that by convention time, the votes of the superdelegates will be in proportions similar to those of the regular delegates. It would be a bummer to have the race decided by the supers, and a tragedy if the candidate who buys off the most supers and thus hits the magic number would have otherwise lost. That would leave a taste in my mouth similar to that left by the Supreme Court-decided 2000 election. In effect, the elite would have trumped the common people, and that is never a good thing.

As for my (admittedly hyperbolic) remark about Bill C, it can't be denied that he injected Sen. Obama's race into a number of recent speeches. Which leads to the question: Why would he choose to do so, other than to subtly remind those of our fellow citizens who may be uneasy at the prospect of a black president that perhaps they are right to be uneasy?

Granted, the man didn't loudly declare, in mouth-foaming early David Duke style, that our nice white neighborhoods will surely be overrun by hordes of hopped-up jigaboos eager to rape our wives and daughters if that there boy gets anywhere near the White House. (I'm sure he didn't even use the word "uppity".)

But it doesn't take much to play on the fears of folks who might be inclined to the view that we are risking just a little too much in hiring a man of color to lead us. And despite his, ahem, honorary membership in the black race, Bill might just be ambitious enough, or desperate enough, or cocky enough, or arrogant enough, to play such head games in pursuit of the enormous prize he and his wife seek.

At any rate, his recent forays into the lovely world of race-baiting have been slapped down, so I doubt that he'll venture there again.

[joanie]

Again - negatives among Republicans. You put too much stock in the need for Republicans to turn out. We don't need them.

You make a lot of assumptions, putsie. That's all I can say.

The only thing that I can see defeating Hillary or Obama is the Democratic Congress with all their dithering after having been handed a mandate to get something done and clean up the mess.

Now they are possibly Dwight Pelzing "McKinneying" Dennis Kucinich in Ohio.
"Is Dennis Kucinich Getting McKinney’d"

Don't cross Pelosi and Reid. A pox on all of their houses. Maybe I'll vote for McCain. If we spend enough money on war and permanent warring, we'll all disappear and the planet can start fresh.

Oh god. Then we would have to repeat the Crusades. Will we never learn?

BTW, I think you missed the irony in Sirota's post.

[joanie]

Super delegates can vote the way they wish. Political promises . . . are much like candidate-constituency promises: meaningless. That's why Bill was busy making phone calls. Bill, himself, is a super delegate.

[Mike Barer]

Here is the problem that I have with Hilary. She had no office and no plan to campaign her. She thought it would be all wrapped up but when things don't go according to plan, she scramble to get something going.
Congrats to Governor Gregoire for getting on the bandwagon.

[Mike Barer]

Here is the problem that I have with Hilary. She had no office and no plan to campaign her. She thought it would be all wrapped up but when things don't go according to plan, she scramble to get something going.
Congrats to Governor Gregoire for getting on the bandwagon.

[Mike Barer]

Here is the problem that I have with Hilary. She had no office and no plan to campaign her. She thought it would be all wrapped up but when things don't go according to plan, she scramble to get something going.
Congrats to Governor Gregoire for getting on the bandwagon.

[joanie]

Hey, Mike. I agree with you all three times! She did think it was hers for the asking.

It's was like the Olympics: people work for years getting better and better and some upstart with the magic blows everyone else out of the rink (or wherever). We've seen it over and over.

[Bryan Styble]

Hillary should thank Bush on caucus day, kids.

[Bryan Stible]

And why is no one here talking about ME ME ME!!!

[Bryan Styble]

That "me me me" comment above obviously was NOT posted by me, but by another of those puerile imposters herein.

And it's just fine with me that few if any of the nasty BW posters still are the least bit interested in my former stalking radio efforts...but then why are some still trying to Stalinistically (i.e., anonymously from the shadows) assassinate my character?

Quite unbelligerantly,
[the real] BRYAN STYBLE/Seattle