have you slept with tim eyman?

That question was well discussed Tuesday night at the heavily male crowd at Drinking Liberally, the beery, weekly progressive networking evening at the Montlake Alehouse.

Though only occasionally attended by BlatherWatch, it's always fun, and attended by famous bloggers, name recognizable MSM people, liberal politicians, and a potpourri of political pros who can talk like sixty and drink like a hunnerd. 

The overriding question was, of course, is Tim Eyman Gay?

This in-depth discussion is available on the inaugural Drinking Liberally podcast, hosted by Goldy at horsesass.org. Though it's as puerile as any of us, it's funny as hell, and let's face it- podcasting is the only hope there is for America- ask Mike Webb.

Whoo boy! What a mitzvah it is for gays and lesbians, who finally got some rights in this state, to have Tim Eyman, the weasel-toned, murky-toothed running-back of Washington politics, beat all the ordained bigots to the punch getting an initiative and a referendum on the streets that would yank the victory out from under the happy, yet hapless minority.

When the gay rights bill passed through the Legislature last week and unhesitatingly signed by Governor Gregoire this week, the side affects were almost as momentous as the event itself.

Talk radio got a shitload of grist for their daily mill runs (running pretty thin lately); evangelicals got reams of hellfire for their sermons and loads of fear factor for their fundraising.

Fear of gays and gay rights has been a fundraising workhorse for years for Republicans and faith-based charlatans like the Revs Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Joe Fuiton and Ken Hutcherson.

There's nothing that can get up the blood pressure and out the checkbook for these so-called Christians than the thought of a blowjob without earthly retribution. What some people do in their own bedrooms is shocking enough to these good believers, but that they might have to rent them the bedroom is unthinkable.

Republicans thought they got a big fat cause celebre to use in the Fall elections- until Tim Eyman thrust himself into the mix.

Tim Eyman,barks like a dog and crawls on his belly like a reptile- we're thinking he may be one of those human-animal clones President Bush is talking about. Most people associate Eyman with self-promotion, self-aggrandizement, promotion of himself, and making money from promoting Tim Eyman.

He's always made his money by monkey-wrenching government by demagoging taxation. But when he heard how Queen Christine and the Democrats gave the green light to sickos who take it up the butt, he reportedly said, "There's gold in them thar ills."

He's not been all that successful dogging taxes lately- his most recent successes have been from stealing other people's ideas- like performance audits stolen from the late Mike Siegel who stole the idea from State Auditor, Brian Sonntag.

Having outmaneuvered such renowned bigots-of-the-cloth as Hutcherson and Rev. Joe Fuiton, Eyman now leads the God Hates Fag camp. Unfortunately for them, with his name attached, the campaign can be cast as just another profiteering Eyman Cirque de la Lie- as credible as a commercial for a no-pain dentist.

Fuiton (which BTW, is pronounced "feetin'" and, his staff us assures us, has nothing whatsoever to do with "shrimpin'") has expressed his dismay at the Eyman initiatives. "I'm not opposed to it, but I'm not in favor of it," he told the Seattle Times. "I'm not entirely certain it's the best strategy."

Eyman has muddied the water for any initiatives the evil preachers might be strategizing.

Really, how much traction will the gay rights bill have in the 2006 elections? Split evenly between the parties, (with the notable exception of the heroic, expedient Sen. Finkbeiner) the Legislative vote probably won't harm too many legislators. Republicans, if they choose to use it as an issue, will be forced to advocate for less rights for people.

It's becoming harder and harder to convince the electorate that 'live and let live' isn't the best policy for their fellow citizens who happen to sleep with their own gender.

This rights bill passage is exciting only because it's finally passed. It can't be shocking to anyone- we've argued about it for 29 years. And we've already been widely exposed to the more volatile issue- gay marriage. And the poll numbers around that are steadily going south for the "het and proud" crowd.

We're convinced the collection basket-passers of the religious right, and the cynical Rovian tacticians of the Republican Party were responsible for thrusting gay marriage into the forefront of recent debates.

Rep. Ed Murray, (the hero of Friday's victory) has advocated for years an incremental liberalization of the way the state treats gay people- the rights bill just passed, was a necessary first step towards eventual marriage rights.

But through the bluster of talk radio and cable TV, gay marriage got pushed to the head of the line- we believe prematurely. It was designed to scare the horses, create the devisive wedges and raised the money the new Republicans have thriven upon.

In Washington State, Murray's incremental strategy won in the end; and there's nothing the prancing ladyboy from Mukilteo can do about it.

Frankly, we doubt if he cares whether his initiatives will win or lose- the money to be made is in the campaign- Eyman has his cold, green eye (that's where the reptile part comes in) on the fat, untapped funds of the fundamentalist Christians.

By our lights, they deserve to give up their fat socks to Tim Eyman; and he deserves all the resulting karma.

Comments

[sparky]

My first thought is " Saying that Tim Eyeman is gay is an insult to gay people.,,,"

Is he gay? whom knows...Look at Jim West...How many male Republicans who have fought hard against gay rights have subsequently turned out to be self-loathing homosexuals themselves...

As someone else posted on another thread, this is a cash cow for Eyeman. He knows the Right will open their wallets on this issue...

[sparky]

My first thought is " Saying that Tim Eyeman is gay is an insult to gay people.,,,"

Is he gay? whom knows...Look at Jim West...How many male Republicans who have fought hard against gay rights have subsequently turned out to be self-loathing homosexuals themselves...

As someone else posted on another thread, this is a cash cow for Eyeman. He knows the Right will open their wallets on this issue...

[sparky]

Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism

Dr. Lawrence Britt, a political scientist, has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes.

Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

[Seabeck]

Exactly when is the Tim Eyeman show? What station?

IMHO, the Performance Audit Initiative was a waste. I called it the "so what?" Initiative long before Kirby picked up on it. You subjectively establish benchmarks for some government agency, a year later discover the government agency is still inefficient, you spent taxpayer dollars performing the audit and writing a glitzy report, and the head of the government agency sez, "So what?" Is the threat of public humilation enough to get any government program to become more efficient and less wasteful? I think not. Fire the agency head, ban them from any government employment, severence, and/or trumped up retirement benefits.

I talked to Brian Sonntag a few years ago on 710 KIRO regarding the Seattle School District budget fiasco, and who was picking up the tab for Moss Adams to audit the School District after the State Auditor's office had already performed their annual audit. He thought that was a very good question, and since I took my answer off the air, I never received one.

(Seabeck be a CPA; Associate member of the Certified Fraud Examiners, and has published articles in the Kitsap Business Journal on fraud and embezzlement).

[sparky]

Seabeck, what do you know about Eyeman keeping money from his initiative work?

sounds like you have a cool job!

[Fremont]

Good job on the fascism points,
Sparky....and, to see the USofbUSh analogy in living color, go here: http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm (I wish I knew how to do websites in the click-on way)

[ExDem]

Exactly who is Dr. Lawrence Brit? I did a quick Google on him but couldn't find any bio information. His ability to make 14 points that somehow seem applicable to our current administration is a bit of a stretch, but maybe he's a well respected, down the middle kind of guy.

I mean his points appear to be an accurate description of the Soviet Union or Communist China. Applying them to the USA is a real stretch and to me, sounds a bit paranoid.

[sparky]

ExDem, look at the website provided by Freemont for some examples. Over the top? Im not sure. I dont spend a lot of time looking over my shoulder so I dont think I am paranoid. But I am concerned. My 94 year old neighbor, a life-long Republican, said this whole thing reminds her of the build up of the German movement to be the supreme power of the world in the 1930's. My mom has said the same thing.

We all want to be safe. We disagree on whether or not we are safer, and the methods being used to supposedly assure us that safety.

[Seabeck]

Sparky,

Let's put it this way. If I worked for the IRS (and I don't), I suspect an Eyman (personal) tax audit, as well as examination of his bank account activity, would reveal quite a bit of creative accounting.

I believe the books of Permanent Offense are a matter of public record, but that does not mean some creative things are not going on there (that never hit the books).

But this is only a hunch, based on my experience with non profit organizations, and not based on any first-hand knowledge that I may have about Mr. Eyman or Permanent Offense.

[a related side note: small businesses and non profits all-to-often make it very easy for employees to commit fraud and embezzle from the company or organization undetected. You can tell much about somebody by looking into their green eye.]

[Fremont]

XDem, google Lawrence Britt again, and spell his name correctly. There's lots of bio....

[Fremont]

Safety is such an intangible concept....we feel safe UNTIL the earthquake or the terrorist hits. Sparky's 94-year old neighbor sees similarities to events she has experienced, and her fear factor is elevated. But, hopefully, she will not live long enough to suffer the effects of erosion she is witnessing in society, so her personal safety is intact. Very existential...but, my point is that hearing Cheney say that America is safer because we haven't been attacked by terrorists again is dichotomous...we HAVE been safe from terrorists, but are we, at this minute? I haven't heard the fat lady sing...

[Trip]

"I mean his points appear to be an accurate description of the Soviet Union or Communist China. Applying them to the USA is a real stretch and to me, sounds a bit paranoid."

Uhhhh....have you not been leaving the house AT ALL lately?

There has been a major news story about every one of those points listed above in the past five years:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - FREEDOM FRIES, FLAG PROTECTION, INVOKING 9/11

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - ABU GHRAIB, GUANTANAMO, JOSE PADILLA, SECRET CIA PRISONS

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - SADDAM HUSSEIN, OSAMA BIN LADEN, MICHAEL MOORE

4. Supremacy of the Military - SHOCK AND AWE, PREDATOR STRIKES, BUNKER BUSTERS, EXTRA BILLIONS to DEFENSE BUDGET

5. Rampant Sexism - OPPOSITION TO GAY MARRIAGE, ANTIABORTION STANCES

6. Controlled Mass Media - PAYOLA SCANDAL, BOB WOODWARD, JUDITH MILLER, SINCLAIR BROADCASTING

7. Obsession with National Security - COLOR CODES, TERROR ALERTS, NO-FLY WATCH LISTS

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - TERRI SCHIAVO, JOHN ASHCROFT, FAITH-BASED INITIATIVES

9. Corporate Power is Protected - BANKRUPTCY BILL, TAX BREAKS, K STREET PROJECT

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - WAL-MART, CUTS to UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT EXTENSIONS, TAFT-HARTLEY INVOKED IN WEST COAST DOCKS DISPUTE

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - STEM CELL RESEARCH, ANY BUSH SPEECH, KEN TOMLINSON, INTELLIGENT DESIGN

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - PATRIOT ACT, WARRANTLESS SEARCHES

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - BROWNIE, FEMA, ABRAMOFF, NORQUIST, RALPH REED, TOM DELAY

14. Fraudulent Elections - 2000, 2004, RECENT MAJORITY LEADER ELECTIONS (more GOP House reps voted in first round of votes for Boehner, Blunt, Shadegg than there are GOP reps)

[Lump]

trip sez,"14. Fraudulent Elections - 2000, 2004, RECENT MAJORITY LEADER ELECTIONS (more GOP House reps voted in first round of votes for Boehner, Blunt, Shadegg than there are GOP reps)"

Are they from King County? Did they vote for Gregoire?

[joanie]

I was never a believer that one should shoot the messenger and so gave Tim Eyman the benefit of believing he was just acting on his convictions. I like people who demonstrate the courage of their convictions.

However, this is not a tax issue. So, I, too, question his ethics on this one. Perhaps he has become a "for profit" kind of activist and anything goes. But, if his premature activating of this issue works against it, great!

For the record, I've never agreed with a thing he proposed.

[sparky]

Lump, the Federal Office of Government Accountability ( GAO) found evidence of election results tampering ( electronically and otherwise) in Ohio. Too late to do anything about it now, though. And Ohio's GOP just passed even more draconian laws regarding their elections, including removing the opportunity to challenge the outcomes of elections at the local level--have to go to Congress now. Those who challenged Gov. Gregoire's election would not have had the power to do so if that law had been in effect here.
Those laws are not good for any of us.

[sparky]

I know what you are saying Joanie...the people I have been involved with who are passionate about the issues volunteer their time to get their message across, and that makes it difficult sometimes, because of work and family obligations. Paid signature gatherers, taking donations, and previous misuse of donations make it hard for me to trust the motivation behind this. We elect people to go the the Legislature to debate and decide our laws. I would think that the idea that a person cannot be discriminated against in finding housing, or have the right to have a voice in medical decisions for a life partner would not be something that wouldn't bother anyone. But, obviously it does.

[Lump]

Sparky sez, "the Federal Office of Government Accountability ( GAO) found evidence of election results tampering ( electronically and otherwise) in Ohio. Too late to do anything about it now, though."

Sparky, did your meds show up late this month? The GAO (Government Accounting Office) shows no record of investigating voter fraud. It's not their department. Now, where did you get that info? All I found out searching was the hysteria of the lefties in a Demotratic district that was run by Democtrats. There was an AP story that a tech from Diebold came in an ran tests on the machines in the presence of a guy from the Green Party (whacko uber lib) who filed the original complaint, and some whining Dems and the machines in question all passed.

[joanie]

Lump, check this website out then tell me what you think:

http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2005/1529

[KS]

It is way late in the game to be able to do anything about this. After the rampant voter corruption in King County, I am not surprised if some of this is founded, but proving in a court of law will be another uphill battle as the Repubs found out last year. If it does go to court, with the speed of due process - you can kiss off Bush's 2nd term. It can be likened to the Gubenatorial situation here, except that it is the other political party affected.

All that it appears can be done is to take out the Diebold machines and other elements that cast doubt on the outcome of the 2004 Presidential election and make sure it is done before 2008. If someone does not keep birdogging this, it will surely occur in the '08 election, just as sure as it will occur again in King County - which it appears destined to.

[Lump]

joanie sez, "check this website out then tell me what you think: http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2005/1529"

Well, I have to acknowledge your point. But since it's a lefty organization, I'd like to read the actual government text as well before I admit to being wrong. I read several other articles as well and it is certainly tainted to the farrrrrrr left. So far all I have come up with is Democrats are too stupid to vote.

This is the page I've come up with and certainly is not cut and dried about fraud.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/multidb.cgi

[joanie]

Lump, you could have clicked on the actual government document at that website. It ws actually there - in red. Second paragraph: "click here for GAO report." IN RED. Click on it!

I love you but honestly! :)

[joanie]

KS, the republican Secretary of State in Washington said everything was done legally and openly. The judge in Wenatchee(?) which is in a red county chided the republicans for bringing the law suit.

Gregoire did everything above board and legally. She did nothing Rossi wouldn't have done under the same circumstances. Will there never be a time that you guys don't consider yourselves as victims?

There are differences between the shenanigans in Florida 2000 and Ohio 2004 and the non-shenanigans in Washington State.

I'm not saying that the democratic party doesn't pull whatever strings they can get away with any more than the republicans do; but, in the above three cases, the facts are pretty evident.

I would have so much more respect for you if had a more informed and accurate take on these issues.

[KS]

Joanie - the Secretary of State is spineless and probably a weasel - he just happens to be Republican. Gregoire was not a good AG (the OK boys ranch and the bogus Tobacco settlement are just a few items that she handled poorly). Rob McKenna has done more for the people in the last year than she did in her 8 years.

If the Republicans would have had their act together, they could have shown that there were plenty of shennanigans in Wenatchee. The judge made the correct decision based on the evidence presented. At least they had their day in court which was fruitless.

Actually, Ohio in 2004 has not gone to court yet - why not ? For that reason I consider that lesser of a caliber of shennanigans than Washington Governor's election of 2004. Not saying that it doesn't deserve to go to court in Ohio. I throw the same question back to you at a National level - "Will there never be a time that you guys don't consider yourselves as victims?" Sorry dear, but I don't consider Gregoire, Ron Sims and the Democrat-controlled State legislature any less corrupt than the Bush Administration. Both opposing sides have looked foolish trying to grasp at straws to demonize the side in power...but that's the kind of political world we live in today. 

[joanie]

Well, another argument of opinion over fact.

Sam Reed may be spineless (opinion) but he deemed the election legal (fact).

The republicans may not have had their act together (although I'm wondering what makes you the expert?) but the judge chided them for bringing forward a meritless case (fact).

The GAO deemed the Ohio election to have serious irregularities (fact).

So what else did you say that I should take seriously? Something about grasping straws? Sorry, KS, I look for facts, not straws.

[ExDem]

OK, so I wasted 15 minutes skimming through the GAO report. Here are my observations on these election concerns:

1. The GAO report does not find evidence of systematic problems with use of electronic voting machines. Instead, they cite the fact that there are many different makes and models in use, that elections are run by individual precincts across the nation, and that there is no consensus on specific root causes of problems.

2. John Kerry, his campaign and the Democratic Party had plenty at stake. If there was any shred of evidence or even belief that somehow the election results in Ohio were rigged, why did they not call for an investigation? A few possibilities.
(a) They were unaware of any irregularities in the aftermath of the election, thus didn't know to challenge the results.
(b) They were stupid and knew there were irregularities, but did nothing. They just accepted defeat.
(c) They were part of some sinister, clever plot by Karl Rove. They never intended to win, but somehow were actually part of the Republican cause.
(d) There were no credible allegations that could explain why Kerry lost Ohio by 118,000 votes. Any irregularities were within the normal range of any election and would never make enough of a difference to change the result.

3. The GAO report cites both reported irregularities and potential irregularities. Kind of hard to do much about that, beyond the recommendation they make. Nowhere in their report do they draw any conclusions that somehow actual problems could be documented that call the results into question in any precinct around the country.

4. Seems like most of the issues the GAO covers point to actions by the local elections officials. It takes a pretty big leap to understand how Republicans rigged results in precincts run by the Democrats.

So, the people that somehow think there is some dark conspiracy in Ohio that stole the election represent a tiny minority of people. But, somehow, those people think they know something more than the candidate and party that stood the most to gain by overturning the results. So, everyone can draw their own conclusions. I've made up my mind and I think people stuck on this issue are either paranoid or stubborn losers.

[KS]

My comments about the in-state are more than grasping at straws. Read this;
http://www.soundpolitics.com/archives/005674.html

This site is no more bias, and if anything more objective than the site you showed that I read. Your statement about Judge Bridges chiding the Republicans is inaccurate - what he did do is display alot of concern about the culture in the Records and Elections Division of King County, which keeps being shown over and over - like they don't care about corruption, as long as they can get away with it. Ex-Dem lays out a solid case about why the case in Ohio re:2004 has not gone to court and until it does I have a difficult time taking it seriously.

You may look for the facts, but you also seem to throw a fair amount of emotion into your posts. Get over 2000 ! It happened, Bush won then, Gore was never ahead in Florida, whereas Rossi won 2 counts in this state - Sore Loserman Gore lost the Electoral vote. If you can get over the 2000 Presidential Election, I will work on getting over 2004 in this state !

[sparky]

Michael...apparently no one wants to touch the gay angle.....!

[wanderer]

Other than $$$...I think Tim is angling to get himself a church, a pulpit, and maybe even a choir...

[KS]

My only comment on the original post is that if the guys at heavily drinking crowd of Drinking Liberally are obsessed about who is sleeping with Tim Eyman, they apparently want to establish themselves as the Homocrat wing of the Democrat party. There I touched it... will see who has a sense of humor around here and who does not.

[wanderer]

You gonna start tellin jokes?

[wanderer]

I think you need to get a new act..

[sparky]

* sound of crickets chirping

[joanie]

Mike Webb stream . . . he interviewed Joseph Wilson tonight. Not bad, huh? And he's had quite a few callers. He's much nicer now. It is just like having him back on KIRO!

[joanie]

KS, Sount Politics is just a blog and Stefan Sharkansky simply posted his findings on his personal computer. I guess if you think his words and little sleuthing amount to that which is better the your own republican party's, well that is okay with me.

It has been pretty well concluded that Gore won the state of Florida - had he asked for a recount of the whole state - hope I'm remembering correctly.

It may be history, but hopefully some of us learn from history so as not to repeat it.

Again, comparing Florida with 2004 Washington State is painting with a pretty broad brush.

[joanie]

KS, I found the article in The Olympian which reported the verdict. I think it is objective. The republicans fell short of proving their case.

My opinion has been formed by such articles. I confess to not having a law degree nor having inside information.

"At the outset of the trial, Dale Foreman, a former legislator and attorney for the Republicans, said the case hinged on "election fraud by the upper management of the King County elections."

Foreman never made his case, and Judge Bridges nailed Republicans for that failure.

The judge said Republicans did not show clear and convincing evidence of improper conduct or irregularities.

He noted that no election in any county is perfect.

That point was driven home when Thurston County Auditor Kim Wyman took the witness stand late last week. She testified to the way general election ballots were checked and rechecked in this county and the accuracy of the count.

On cross-examination from Democrats' attorneys, however, Wyman had to admit to a series of mistakes that plagued her election staff in the September primary election."

The Olympian Online

[joanie]

Well, let's try that link again!

The Olympian

[Lump]

joanie sez, " you could have clicked on the actual government document at that website. It ws actually there - in red. Second paragraph: "click here for GAO report." IN RED. Click on it!

Well, you're absolutely right and I ACKNOWLEDGE that I missed it. After reading the entire GAO report and reseaching the DOJ and FEQ sites, I'm fried. There are two things that jump out at me and they are voting machines were not set to a standard and the state and local officials were not adequately trained and did not train their subordinates on down the food chain. I must have missed the part where Bush/Cheney bought off the entire state, county, Republican and Democratic partys. But, I'll find it and now I just have to worry about my roof blowing off and my neighbors zillion feet high cedar trees staying on his property.

[sparky]

stay safe Lump!

[KS]

joanie sez - " It has been pretty well concluded that Gore won the state of Florida - had he asked for a recount of the whole state - hope I'm remembering correctly.
It may be history, but hopefully some of us learn from history so as not to repeat it."

Where did you come up with that propaganda ? I guess those sources might include the Daily Kos, Democratic Underground and other leftwing moonbat blogs, because the NY Times and several other major dailies who are liberally bent and concluded that Bush won Florida in 2000 on all scenarios. So, those assertions that Gore won Florida cannot be taken seriously. If you don't believe it, I challenge you to Google that topic. I guess that you can't get over 2000 yet !

On the other hand, I don't dispute the article in the Olympian. Yes, the Repubs fell short of demonstrating what they had to. End of that story.

Sound Politics has done some extensive research on voter registration and are seldom disproven. However, some people have trotted findings out as a news story before the research is done, such as was the case just before the November 2005 election. There is voter registration roll negligance big TIME in this state that could have a telling effect on future elections if it is not rectified. Can you prove that this isn't the case, with a non-partisan source ?

[Fremont]

Thanks for the podcast link, Michael...if I were to drink liberally, would I find you on the gay side of the room?